6 ms·

I see threads like this all the time, and they don't make sense. Reddit is an ad company. It's not an effort to build you a nice website, it's a machine for ta

by twhb 8y ago

I see threads like this all the time, and they don't make sense. Reddit is an ad company. It's not an effort to build you a nice website, it's a machine for taking your time and attention from you then selling it. Asking Reddit to "please stop" grabbing at better attention hooks is like asking McDonald's to "please stop" raising prices. The right way to say this is timeless: refuse to make the trade. If Reddit goes too far, close the tab. That, in bulk, is how you get a response.

abandonliberty 8y ago
Unless you actually manage to affect the behavior of other people by highlighting what Reddit is doing. However, often people complain and do nothing, or complain and keep buying the company's product. (e.g. games with microtransactions)
- isostatic 8y ago
  How do other people using games with microtransactions, or using reddit, or watching TV with adverts, harm me?
  - abc-xyz 8y ago
    They harm you by making this kind of behavior acceptable. You may not care about X (who might be spamming people to download an app even thought you've rejected over a hundred times), but suddenly Y (that you love) sees how successful X has become doing this sort of behavior and begin to engage in the same behavior because there's little to no backlash in doing so. This is especially a problem when it comes to privacy because the average person doesn't understand the current and future dangers of the information being collected, and you're often forced to use these evil services because that's where everybody else is.
  - pasquinelli 8y ago
    how does opening a thread to gripe about those things harm anyone? but if it persuades enough people, they could collectively have the influence to make it better.
  - prepend 8y ago
    This is a good question and I used to have this opinion. Then I noticed how I didn’t really like video games that much and that they largely all had microtransactions. Sure there are a few, but creatives are limited and if the are making a game, they choose between designing for $50 for a complete experience or for $13/month for the rest of your life. These affect gameplay drastically. So people liking microtransactions mean these games make more money, so they are made, so stories are worse, so my game play is affected. I loved Mass Effect 1. The mind set of “why would I care if multiplayer charges for stuff?” led to the franchise sucking. And while there are other games to play, none as good as Mass Effect exist.
  - dredmorbius 8y ago
    Among other things: they tend to dry up the options for other forms of content provision (or creator payment), such that they're the only game in town. It's a Gresham's Law dynamic that's been observed at least as far back as the 1950s, see Dwight McDonald, "A Theory of Mass Culture", H.L. Mencken, "Bayard v. Lionheart", or Ben Bagdikian's The Media Monopoly. There's also the wee slight problem that subversion of mass media by populist, demagogic, and/or fascist political movements is a distinct historical trend. See Marshall McLuhan, The Gutenberg Galaxy, Elizabeth Eisenstein, The Printing Press as an Agent of Change, or much of Hannah Arendt's work. This theme is also hit on by MacDonald, below. https://is.muni.cz/el/1421/jaro2008/ESB032/um/5136660/MacDonald_-_A_Theory_of_Mass_Culture.pdf https://is.muni.cz/el/1421/jaro2008/ESB032/um/5136660/MacDon... https://amomai.blogspot.com/2008/10/hl-mencken-bayard-vs-lionheart.html https://amomai.blogspot.com/2008/10/hl-mencken-bayard-vs-lio... https://www.worldcat.org/title/media-monopoly/oclc/249189781&referer=brief_results https://www.worldcat.org/title/media-monopoly/oclc/249189781... https://www.worldcat.org/title/gutenberg-galaxy-the-making-of-typographic-man/oclc/1002305448 https://www.worldcat.org/title/gutenberg-galaxy-the-making-o... https://www.worldcat.org/title/printing-press-as-an-agent-of-change-communications-and-cultural-transformations-in-early-modern-europe-volumes-i-and-ii/oclc/857276723 https://www.worldcat.org/title/printing-press-as-an-agent-of... http://www.openculture.com/2017/01/hannah-arendt-explains-how-propaganda-uses-lies-to-erode-all-truth-morality.html http://www.openculture.com/2017/01/hannah-arendt-explains-ho...
jopsen 8y ago
Things don't always change for the better because you complain. But things rarely change for the better when you don't complain. Reddit is trying to build a community too, because otherwise they wouldn't have visitors. It's naive to think that speaking up never makes a difference.
- twhb 8y ago
  History doesn’t support your comment. People have complained endlessly about ISPs, various video game mechanics, Google and Facebook tracking; no change, because the people complaining don’t leave. People generally don’t complain about ugly interfaces, stores far away, confusing calls to action; they constantly change and improve, because the people who hit these problems often leave. When speaking up has made a difference, virtually every time, it was coupled with action, or it was speaking up to people who had no reason not to agree. Reddit’s community is a means to an end, that’s my point. Asking for something that strengthens the community without harming ad views may be reasonable, but asking them to strengthen the community at the direct expense of the reason they want a community is nonsense.
  - jopsen 8y ago
    Google and Facebook have done a Lot of things to mitigate privacy concerns. Both have decent controls, you can see your data, delete data, see apps that have access, etc. Sure, privacy issues aren't solved, largely because people don't care, don't understand the tools, and marketing companies are ever more aggressive. But to say that Google and Facebook have done nothing in the face of public outrage is wrong. Rome wasn't built in day - things get better step by step - speaking up is often a good start. We spoke up, and the EU is largely without software parents. It's easy to forget our victories in the face of all the upcoming battles.
danielbarla 8y ago
> Asking Reddit to "please stop" grabbing at better attention hooks is like asking McDonald's to "please stop" raising prices. It's more like asking McDonald's to stop trying to sell / serve me a worse product that I didn't order, halfway through my order. And despite them knowing who I am, repeating this question every time. "Hi, I'd like two McMea- WOULD YOU LIKE A SALAD INSTEAD??" If they are not making sufficient money on one of their products they should pull it, not try to irritate people into choosing something else.
- tim333 8y ago
  Also McDonnalds are in fact sensitive to the "please stop raising prices" stuff. It's been their main USP for ages that they are cheaper than most of the competition.

by twhb 8y ago

abandonliberty 8y ago

Unless you actually manage to affect the behavior of other people by highlighting what Reddit is doing. However, often people complain and do nothing, or complain and keep buying the company's product. (e.g. games with microtransactions)

isostatic 8y ago
How do other people using games with microtransactions, or using reddit, or watching TV with adverts, harm me?
- abc-xyz 8y ago
  They harm you by making this kind of behavior acceptable. You may not care about X (who might be spamming people to download an app even thought you've rejected over a hundred times), but suddenly Y (that you love) sees how successful X has become doing this sort of behavior and begin to engage in the same behavior because there's little to no backlash in doing so. This is especially a problem when it comes to privacy because the average person doesn't understand the current and future dangers of the information being collected, and you're often forced to use these evil services because that's where everybody else is.
- pasquinelli 8y ago
  how does opening a thread to gripe about those things harm anyone? but if it persuades enough people, they could collectively have the influence to make it better.
- prepend 8y ago
  This is a good question and I used to have this opinion. Then I noticed how I didn’t really like video games that much and that they largely all had microtransactions. Sure there are a few, but creatives are limited and if the are making a game, they choose between designing for $50 for a complete experience or for $13/month for the rest of your life. These affect gameplay drastically. So people liking microtransactions mean these games make more money, so they are made, so stories are worse, so my game play is affected. I loved Mass Effect 1. The mind set of “why would I care if multiplayer charges for stuff?” led to the franchise sucking. And while there are other games to play, none as good as Mass Effect exist.
- dredmorbius 8y ago
  Among other things: they tend to dry up the options for other forms of content provision (or creator payment), such that they're the only game in town. It's a Gresham's Law dynamic that's been observed at least as far back as the 1950s, see Dwight McDonald, "A Theory of Mass Culture", H.L. Mencken, "Bayard v. Lionheart", or Ben Bagdikian's The Media Monopoly. There's also the wee slight problem that subversion of mass media by populist, demagogic, and/or fascist political movements is a distinct historical trend. See Marshall McLuhan, The Gutenberg Galaxy, Elizabeth Eisenstein, The Printing Press as an Agent of Change, or much of Hannah Arendt's work. This theme is also hit on by MacDonald, below. https://is.muni.cz/el/1421/jaro2008/ESB032/um/5136660/MacDonald_-_A_Theory_of_Mass_Culture.pdf https://is.muni.cz/el/1421/jaro2008/ESB032/um/5136660/MacDon... https://amomai.blogspot.com/2008/10/hl-mencken-bayard-vs-lionheart.html https://amomai.blogspot.com/2008/10/hl-mencken-bayard-vs-lio... https://www.worldcat.org/title/media-monopoly/oclc/249189781&referer=brief_results https://www.worldcat.org/title/media-monopoly/oclc/249189781... https://www.worldcat.org/title/gutenberg-galaxy-the-making-of-typographic-man/oclc/1002305448 https://www.worldcat.org/title/gutenberg-galaxy-the-making-o... https://www.worldcat.org/title/printing-press-as-an-agent-of-change-communications-and-cultural-transformations-in-early-modern-europe-volumes-i-and-ii/oclc/857276723 https://www.worldcat.org/title/printing-press-as-an-agent-of... http://www.openculture.com/2017/01/hannah-arendt-explains-how-propaganda-uses-lies-to-erode-all-truth-morality.html http://www.openculture.com/2017/01/hannah-arendt-explains-ho...

jopsen 8y ago

Things don't always change for the better because you complain. But things rarely change for the better when you don't complain. Reddit is trying to build a community too, because otherwise they wouldn't have visitors. It's naive to think that speaking up never makes a difference.

twhb 8y ago
History doesn’t support your comment. People have complained endlessly about ISPs, various video game mechanics, Google and Facebook tracking; no change, because the people complaining don’t leave. People generally don’t complain about ugly interfaces, stores far away, confusing calls to action; they constantly change and improve, because the people who hit these problems often leave. When speaking up has made a difference, virtually every time, it was coupled with action, or it was speaking up to people who had no reason not to agree. Reddit’s community is a means to an end, that’s my point. Asking for something that strengthens the community without harming ad views may be reasonable, but asking them to strengthen the community at the direct expense of the reason they want a community is nonsense.
- jopsen 8y ago
  Google and Facebook have done a Lot of things to mitigate privacy concerns. Both have decent controls, you can see your data, delete data, see apps that have access, etc. Sure, privacy issues aren't solved, largely because people don't care, don't understand the tools, and marketing companies are ever more aggressive. But to say that Google and Facebook have done nothing in the face of public outrage is wrong. Rome wasn't built in day - things get better step by step - speaking up is often a good start. We spoke up, and the EU is largely without software parents. It's easy to forget our victories in the face of all the upcoming battles.

danielbarla 8y ago

> Asking Reddit to "please stop" grabbing at better attention hooks is like asking McDonald's to "please stop" raising prices. It's more like asking McDonald's to stop trying to sell / serve me a worse product that I didn't order, halfway through my order. And despite them knowing who I am, repeating this question every time. "Hi, I'd like two McMea- WOULD YOU LIKE A SALAD INSTEAD??" If they are not making sufficient money on one of their products they should pull it, not try to irritate people into choosing something else.

tim333 8y ago
Also McDonnalds are in fact sensitive to the "please stop raising prices" stuff. It's been their main USP for ages that they are cheaper than most of the competition.