5 ms·

Here's another, more critical take on the plan: https://quillette.com/2018/06/27/bill-de-blasios-plan-to-purge-asians-from-new-yorks-top-schools/ https://quill

by dilap 8y ago

Here's another, more critical take on the plan: https://quillette.com/2018/06/27/bill-de-blasios-plan-to-purge-asians-from-new-yorks-top-schools/ https://quillette.com/2018/06/27/bill-de-blasios-plan-to-pur... I think it's terrible. It's robbing poor kids of a rare opportunity to get a first-rate education, to make elites feel better about themselves. If you insist that the racial demographics of the schools match those of the city, a much better way to do it is to keep the admissions test, but simply take the top N% w/in each racial bucket, rather than globally. Otherwise, if you get rid of the test completely and pulling evenly from every school, you are guaranteed (1) you will not create an environment w/ the truly elite (2) you are replacing standardized tests, which are fair, with the whole teacher-grading-system, which is wildly inconsistent and generally a better measure of who behaves and who sucks up than who is academically worthy.

throwaway2048 8y ago
the supreme court declared racial quotas illegal.
- mrchicity 8y ago
  Yes, instead we have holistic approaches which schools refuse to document for proprietary competitive reasons, and that holistic process has the same outcome as a racial quota. Very odd case.
- dilap 8y ago
  which is really quite unfortunate, since everyone still wants to essentially set quotas, but now you can't do it in a transparent and fair (or less unfair) way.
gnicholas 8y ago
> simply take the top N% w/in each racial bucket, rather than globally This would benefit wealthy Black/Latino kids, whose parents can afford test prep. If the goal is to have a more racially diverse student body, it accomplishes that goal. But if the goal is to help disadvantaged kids get ahead, then it's not useful.
- ericdykstra 8y ago
  This is already what happens with the current policies. Affirmative Action hasn't had any benefit to Black kids except those from affluent two-parent families.
- dilap 8y ago
  you can make test prep available to everyone, and in fact there are programs doing that. a better argument is it's unfair to kids in shit elementary schools. and it is, but you have to try to just make those schools better. it's a true shame if you don't give the most talented/driven kids an opportunity to go to a first rate school. standarized testing is imperfect, but it is the most fair system.
cardplayer 8y ago
More than 50% of the global population lives in Asia and less than 5% live in North America. By 2050, would it be so strange if the majority of applicants and students of elite western schools would be Asian?
otoburb 8y ago
Tracking and ability grouping have documented negative impacts on weak students. Placing a student in a remedial class becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy, increasing the likelihood that his academic performance will fall further behind, and lowering the odds that he will complete high school. These students learn better in classrooms shared with higher-performing students. However, those higher-performing students get nothing from being in classes with low performers, and get substantial benefits from being tracked into faster-moving classes with other top students. These students languish in mixed-ability classrooms as teachers focus on the slower students, or they’re conscripted to help teach their classmates the skills they’ve already mastered. And these students run in place while students in honors and gifted tracks press relentlessly forward. The key phrase in the excerpt above is: "These students learn better in classrooms shared with higher-performing students." de Blasio latched onto those same study results and clearly believes that the trade off is worth it. While there may be some merit to your claim that de Blasio just wants to make himself feel better, I'm pretty sure that most "elites" in the city trying to send their children to top high schools are not happy with this outcome. Note that middle school admissions are also being changed, starting in one district this year, such that top middle schools will be forced to set aside 25% of their seats for incoming students who scored below-average or at the bottom[1] of the middle-school state tests taken in Grade 4. The purpose of the plan is to "increase diversity in selective, high-performing middle schools [...]". A lot of parents in the affected district are upset. [1] https://www.nytimes.com/2018/06/20/nyregion/new-york-top-middle-schools-desegregation-plan-district-3-approved.html https://www.nytimes.com/2018/06/20/nyregion/new-york-top-mid...
- dilap 8y ago
  The results of policies like these is that people with money will take their kids out of public schools. Smart kids w/o money will get screwed. Not everyone is going to have equal interests and abilities. Bright kids deserve an educational environment where they can be challenged and develop their full potential.
  - jacobolus 8y ago
    > Bright kids deserve an educational environment where they can be challenged and develop their full potential. All kids in public schools deserve that. It just takes more resources than we as a society are willing to spend, especially when it comes to schools serving mostly poor brown kids in poor neighborhoods.

by dilap 8y ago

throwaway2048 8y ago

the supreme court declared racial quotas illegal.

mrchicity 8y ago
Yes, instead we have holistic approaches which schools refuse to document for proprietary competitive reasons, and that holistic process has the same outcome as a racial quota. Very odd case.
dilap 8y ago
which is really quite unfortunate, since everyone still wants to essentially set quotas, but now you can't do it in a transparent and fair (or less unfair) way.

gnicholas 8y ago

> simply take the top N% w/in each racial bucket, rather than globally This would benefit wealthy Black/Latino kids, whose parents can afford test prep. If the goal is to have a more racially diverse student body, it accomplishes that goal. But if the goal is to help disadvantaged kids get ahead, then it's not useful.

ericdykstra 8y ago
This is already what happens with the current policies. Affirmative Action hasn't had any benefit to Black kids except those from affluent two-parent families.
dilap 8y ago
you can make test prep available to everyone, and in fact there are programs doing that. a better argument is it's unfair to kids in shit elementary schools. and it is, but you have to try to just make those schools better. it's a true shame if you don't give the most talented/driven kids an opportunity to go to a first rate school. standarized testing is imperfect, but it is the most fair system.

cardplayer 8y ago

More than 50% of the global population lives in Asia and less than 5% live in North America. By 2050, would it be so strange if the majority of applicants and students of elite western schools would be Asian?

otoburb 8y ago

Tracking and ability grouping have documented negative impacts on weak students. Placing a student in a remedial class becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy, increasing the likelihood that his academic performance will fall further behind, and lowering the odds that he will complete high school. These students learn better in classrooms shared with higher-performing students. However, those higher-performing students get nothing from being in classes with low performers, and get substantial benefits from being tracked into faster-moving classes with other top students. These students languish in mixed-ability classrooms as teachers focus on the slower students, or they’re conscripted to help teach their classmates the skills they’ve already mastered. And these students run in place while students in honors and gifted tracks press relentlessly forward. The key phrase in the excerpt above is: "These students learn better in classrooms shared with higher-performing students." de Blasio latched onto those same study results and clearly believes that the trade off is worth it. While there may be some merit to your claim that de Blasio just wants to make himself feel better, I'm pretty sure that most "elites" in the city trying to send their children to top high schools are not happy with this outcome. Note that middle school admissions are also being changed, starting in one district this year, such that top middle schools will be forced to set aside 25% of their seats for incoming students who scored below-average or at the bottom[1] of the middle-school state tests taken in Grade 4. The purpose of the plan is to "increase diversity in selective, high-performing middle schools [...]". A lot of parents in the affected district are upset. [1] https://www.nytimes.com/2018/06/20/nyregion/new-york-top-middle-schools-desegregation-plan-district-3-approved.html https://www.nytimes.com/2018/06/20/nyregion/new-york-top-mid...

dilap 8y ago
The results of policies like these is that people with money will take their kids out of public schools. Smart kids w/o money will get screwed. Not everyone is going to have equal interests and abilities. Bright kids deserve an educational environment where they can be challenged and develop their full potential.
- jacobolus 8y ago
  > Bright kids deserve an educational environment where they can be challenged and develop their full potential. All kids in public schools deserve that. It just takes more resources than we as a society are willing to spend, especially when it comes to schools serving mostly poor brown kids in poor neighborhoods.