8 ms·

What a Russian Smile Means

65 points by dannyow 8y ago

ssambros 8y ago
> There is even a Russian proverb on the topic: “Smiling with no reason is a sign of stupidity.” No there is not. There is a saying that "laughter without a reason is a sign of a fool" ("смех без причины - признак дурачины"), not smiling. I doubt any American will consider unreasonable laughter to be normal.
- sigfubar 8y ago
  I'm Russian, and I parse "смех" as equivalent to "laughter" and "smiling". Yes, they're technically different words, but a person who smiles without a reason looks equally as idiotic as another who laughs without a reason.
  - Swizec 8y ago
    As another slav, we use smeh for laughter or smilih, nasmeh for just smiling, and krohot for just intense laughter. We also find The American Smile to be weird. Especially the forced toothy grin part. Took me years of practice and Americans still can’t tell when I’m smiling while everyone back home thinks I’ve gone crazy.
  - eps 8y ago
    The OP's right though. This particular proverb refers to laughing or giggling, not smiling, and the article twists it to fit the narration.
    - pandaman 8y ago
      As another Russian I don't see how it's just about laughter or how any native speaker could think that. "Смех" in proverbs stands for general happiness just like "плач" (literally "crying") does for general unhappiness.
      - zzzcpan 8y ago
        I think your confusion comes from not fully understanding the meaning of the word "smiling" here. You overgeneralize it a bit into laughter and giggling.
        pandaman 8y ago
        The proverb is not far from English "Ignorance is bliss" it says that one who is happy without reason might be just stupid. TFA is actually talking about how Americans are trying to seem happy with their smiles so this proverb is appropriate here in my view. As for the literal interpretation of proverbs in general and this one in particular: nobody needs a proverb for "if you are laughing like a maniac for no reason then there might be something wrong with you".
        azinman2 8y ago
        As an American I don’t think that “ignorance is bliss” indicates that the ignorant person is a fool, per se. Ignorance might be purposefully and carefully chosen. It’s often used as a general debate on whether you wish to know something or not. For example, if you could know the exact date on which you die, would you wish to know? Choosing yes or no wouldn’t indicate foolishness. It also sounds different from the several translations the Russians provided here.
        pandaman 8y ago
        So, as an American, do you see any similarity between "you might be happier if you did not learn about your situation" and "if you are happy now it might be because you are not aware of your situation"? Could there be a common theme of ignorance leading to happiness or I am just seeing things?
  - gdy 8y ago
    But that's just your personal interpretation of a Russian proverb which may or may not be shared by other Russians. I, for one, don't. The article, however, misquotes the proverb without any mention of such extended interpretation.
  - onemoresoop 8y ago
    In Romanian we inherit the same proverb and its direct translation would be something akin to laugh like a fool (for no apparent reason)
    - onemoresoop 8y ago
      Romanian is not slavic but our cultures intermingle quite a bit
      - Chyzwar 8y ago
        Proverbs are not exclusive to one ethnic group.
  - nbabitskiy 8y ago
    You cannot "parse" proverbs to your liking, they have usus. No one would say that to a smiling person. I believe it's ever being said now only to children, who burst with laughter after whispering around or on hearing the word "toilet". And clearly this proverb is irrelevant to the topic, since we "parse" US smiles as happening for an obvious reason - social convention.
krzyk 8y ago
I'm from Poland and here people don't smile like they do in USA. Don't even get me started on "How are you?", I always want to reply honestly to that, and I don't feel much obligation to reply back (I usually don't care how some stranger feels, why should I?). That's probably the hardest in learning English for me.
- mlevental 8y ago
  i don't understand this. i have never answered как дела with "i have syphillis and my mother is dying and i'm underwater on my mortgage". https://russian.stackexchange.com/a/604 https://russian.stackexchange.com/a/604 "how are you" serves the exact same purpose - who would argue otherwise.
  - GW150914 8y ago
    This kind of greeting is, however, not appropriate to complete strangers and might be considered an inappropriate familiarity. From the top answer in your link. I’m with the gp, it’s grotesque when everyone I come across in America in a supermarket or pharmacy all ask this. Edit: why does this comment minimize?
    - mlevental 8y ago
      you're missing my point: it's a throwaway greeting whenever it is used (between friends in russia or between strangers in the us) so there's nothing "grotesque" about it nor should there be anything confusing about it once you understand the purpose. it's simply a greeting and not actually a question. many times people in america don't actually even answer the question. completely equivalent to здраствуйте or добро пожаловать or whatever.
      - GW150914 8y ago
        Except the gp was specifically talking about strangers, and your link points out that this Russian phrase is overfamiliar for strangers. That is the whole point! From the gp (I usually don't care how some stranger feels, why should I?) It’s a whole other issue if your friend says it, but that isn’t what he was talking about.
asveikau 8y ago
I get tired of articles and people that put us Americans all in the same smiley "how's your day going so far?" box. Maybe the average is like that in most places, and sure you can draw contrasts to other places. But as a grumpy east coaster living out west I find it somewhat irritating too, and I know I am not alone in this.
- GordonS 8y ago
  Hey, UK person here. Every time I visit the US or deal with customers from the US, I'm bombarded with fake well-wishing, accompanied by equally fake grins. You've given me some glimmer of hope that it's not quite everyone in the US who is like that!
usaphp 8y ago
I would rather look at smiling people around me, even if the smile means nothing, than looking at sad faces in Russia. Everytime I go back to visit friends I notice how grumpy and angry most people look and you become to look like that too - the more you look at them.
- gandhium 8y ago
  This. Having lived in Soviet Union (which was even grumpier) I cannot agree more with you.
- sattoshi 8y ago
  Not this. Having lived in Russia, this is something which is neither good nor bad. It just is. The faces are not sad or grumpy, they are relaxed. Nobody pretends to be happier than they are. You just got used to smiles everywhere. There is nothing more to it. At least in Russia, when someone smiles at you, it means something.
  - majewsky 8y ago
    > The faces are not sad or grumpy, they are relaxed. Same for me. I sometimes make a deliberate effort to smile to appear more approachable, but smiling is far from the resting position ofy face muscles. (I'm German.)
  - usaphp 8y ago
    When an average American is forcing his smiling just to make my day better it means more to me than a grumpy face of an average Russian, and makes my day better, and I don’t care if he is really happy or not, he made me happy, that’s what I like about American smiles
kpil 8y ago
It means you're drunk.
ClintEhrlich 8y ago
As an American who spent a year as a visiting researcher inside Russia's Foreign Ministry, I can confirm that these differences in decorum are very real. They are common knowledge in Russian society, and Russian diplomats are trained to take them into account when emulating Western social graces. Broadly speaking, in my experience Russians conceive of smiling as something precious, to be shared with friends or family, not wasted on strangers crossing your path. However, if you have occasion to interact with someone (e.g., asking for directions), they may smile, particularly if something about the conversation generates a feeling of closeness. I got a lot of smiles and handshakes in Moscow from strangers when they found out I was studying at MGIMO, since they (incorrectly) assumed it meant I'd snubbed Harvard or Yale.
salgernon 8y ago
I'm a US person. While going through aggressive cancer treatment and concomitant depression, I was encouraged by my caregivers to smile as much as possible to elevate my mood. They even encouraged me practice smiling while alone. N=1, but this did seem to help. It seemed to lower my stress when around other people, and I noticed that they would be smiling more too (although this may just be because I was finally noticing something that was going on around me.) Otherwise I have "resting porg face".
phyller 8y ago
I see the smile, in my personal slice of American culture, to be a sign that "I mean you no harm, I have positive intentions towards you", which is a valuable piece of information, both to give and receive. And truthfully, someone who is not feeling well disposed towards me and intends to make my life more difficult rarely approaches with a smile. Perhaps in Russia people are not so open about their intentions to each other and these outward indicators have less value?
- bearburger 8y ago
  > I mean you no harm, I have positive intentions towards you But what is the point of smile as "intention indicator" if literally everyone around are smiling to each other? Do you want to say that in the US seller that trying to sell defective goods wouldn't smile?
  - phyller 8y ago
    Well usually everyone around you means you no harm. The person who looks at you and doesn't smile is legitimately more likely to not care if you get hit by a bus or not, even if they have no ill intention towards you. The crazy guy whose alternate personality is telling him to stab you is definitely not smiling but staring at you and muttering to himself. Of course context matters. I don't trust a smile from a used car salesman. I trust a smile more from someone I am playing basketball with, or that I pass while hiking in the woods as they have no incentive to deceive me. And if I don't get a smile from someone I pass while hiking in the woods I would be more on my guard.
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
pndd90 8y ago
'Smiling' with no reason is a sign of stupidity.This should be 'laugther'. Also, the same goes for hugs. I can never get used to why Americans want to hug strangers, especially men.
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
jancsika 8y ago
> If she answered honestly (“I’m tired”), which is what felt most natural, she worried she’d come off as rude. I'm not understanding the word "natural" here. Would her honesty be given in a spirit of satire, confusion, fear, something else? For example, suppose in response to her saying, "I'm tired," I replied, "Now that we've established your propensity for reflexive honesty in response to unexpected questions, what is your bank account and routing number?" Would she take the joke in a spirit of playfulness, or alarm? Edit: clarification
stcredzero 8y ago
Even dealing with a simple “How are you?” felt complicated. People in Russia didn’t engage in this kind of social script, and to her it seemed unnecessary. Did they really want to know how she was? No. This reminds me of my younger self. I would pause and reply with an unvarnished and detailed analysis of my current status. Is it just me, or do other people think that some cultures shifted a bit on the Aspergers spectrum from other cultures? I certainly think that's the case for some subcultures.
dsabanin 8y ago
As a Russian, living in America, I would suggest not to take any clues about social behavior from Russians. It's all shades of dysfunctional from the bottom to the very top.
hurpaDurpa 8y ago
Sometimes I wonder how these sorts of cultural subtleties are compensated for, when defining a set of clinical psychological personality disorders. Cluster A (paranoia): https://www.mentalhelp.net/articles/dsm-5-the-ten-personality-disorders-cluster-a/ https://www.mentalhelp.net/articles/dsm-5-the-ten-personalit... Cluster B (drama): https://www.mentalhelp.net/articles/dsm-5-the-ten-personality-disorders-cluster-b/ https://www.mentalhelp.net/articles/dsm-5-the-ten-personalit... Clister C (anxiety): https://www.mentalhelp.net/articles/dsm-5-the-ten-personality-disorders-cluster-c/ https://www.mentalhelp.net/articles/dsm-5-the-ten-personalit... Take either culture's description, and stack it next to the other, and the incompatible resolution or reconcilliation between the two certainly sounds like it could add up to any of those disorders. When you listen to the sort of discomfort and culture shock that seems implicit in these stories of adaptation, to the wrong set of ears, this all might sound like mental illness. Growing up in one place, and then living in another, only to feel the longing pangs of nostalia and familiarity for what your childhood instict defines or recognizes as normal, clash with the reality of a world turned upsidedown, feels like a recipe for being plied with medication, if you tell the wrong person. It feels like this process scaled up to millions of people, is exactly the sort of thing that drives conflict around the world.

65 points by dannyow 8y ago

> There is even a Russian proverb on the topic: “Smiling with no reason is a sign of stupidity.” No there is not. There is a saying that "laughter without a reason is a sign of a fool" ("смех без причины - признак дурачины"), not smiling. I doubt any American will consider unreasonable laughter to be normal.

sigfubar 8y ago
I'm Russian, and I parse "смех" as equivalent to "laughter" and "smiling". Yes, they're technically different words, but a person who smiles without a reason looks equally as idiotic as another who laughs without a reason.
- Swizec 8y ago
  As another slav, we use smeh for laughter or smilih, nasmeh for just smiling, and krohot for just intense laughter. We also find The American Smile to be weird. Especially the forced toothy grin part. Took me years of practice and Americans still can’t tell when I’m smiling while everyone back home thinks I’ve gone crazy.
- eps 8y ago
  The OP's right though. This particular proverb refers to laughing or giggling, not smiling, and the article twists it to fit the narration.
  - pandaman 8y ago
    As another Russian I don't see how it's just about laughter or how any native speaker could think that. "Смех" in proverbs stands for general happiness just like "плач" (literally "crying") does for general unhappiness.
    - zzzcpan 8y ago
      I think your confusion comes from not fully understanding the meaning of the word "smiling" here. You overgeneralize it a bit into laughter and giggling.
      - pandaman 8y ago
        The proverb is not far from English "Ignorance is bliss" it says that one who is happy without reason might be just stupid. TFA is actually talking about how Americans are trying to seem happy with their smiles so this proverb is appropriate here in my view. As for the literal interpretation of proverbs in general and this one in particular: nobody needs a proverb for "if you are laughing like a maniac for no reason then there might be something wrong with you".
        azinman2 8y ago
        As an American I don’t think that “ignorance is bliss” indicates that the ignorant person is a fool, per se. Ignorance might be purposefully and carefully chosen. It’s often used as a general debate on whether you wish to know something or not. For example, if you could know the exact date on which you die, would you wish to know? Choosing yes or no wouldn’t indicate foolishness. It also sounds different from the several translations the Russians provided here.
        pandaman 8y ago
        So, as an American, do you see any similarity between "you might be happier if you did not learn about your situation" and "if you are happy now it might be because you are not aware of your situation"? Could there be a common theme of ignorance leading to happiness or I am just seeing things?
- gdy 8y ago
  But that's just your personal interpretation of a Russian proverb which may or may not be shared by other Russians. I, for one, don't. The article, however, misquotes the proverb without any mention of such extended interpretation.
- onemoresoop 8y ago
  In Romanian we inherit the same proverb and its direct translation would be something akin to laugh like a fool (for no apparent reason)
  - onemoresoop 8y ago
    Romanian is not slavic but our cultures intermingle quite a bit
    - Chyzwar 8y ago
      Proverbs are not exclusive to one ethnic group.
- nbabitskiy 8y ago
  You cannot "parse" proverbs to your liking, they have usus. No one would say that to a smiling person. I believe it's ever being said now only to children, who burst with laughter after whispering around or on hearing the word "toilet". And clearly this proverb is irrelevant to the topic, since we "parse" US smiles as happening for an obvious reason - social convention.

krzyk 8y ago

I'm from Poland and here people don't smile like they do in USA. Don't even get me started on "How are you?", I always want to reply honestly to that, and I don't feel much obligation to reply back (I usually don't care how some stranger feels, why should I?). That's probably the hardest in learning English for me.

mlevental 8y ago
i don't understand this. i have never answered как дела with "i have syphillis and my mother is dying and i'm underwater on my mortgage". https://russian.stackexchange.com/a/604 https://russian.stackexchange.com/a/604 "how are you" serves the exact same purpose - who would argue otherwise.
- GW150914 8y ago
  This kind of greeting is, however, not appropriate to complete strangers and might be considered an inappropriate familiarity. From the top answer in your link. I’m with the gp, it’s grotesque when everyone I come across in America in a supermarket or pharmacy all ask this. Edit: why does this comment minimize?
  - mlevental 8y ago
    you're missing my point: it's a throwaway greeting whenever it is used (between friends in russia or between strangers in the us) so there's nothing "grotesque" about it nor should there be anything confusing about it once you understand the purpose. it's simply a greeting and not actually a question. many times people in america don't actually even answer the question. completely equivalent to здраствуйте or добро пожаловать or whatever.
    - GW150914 8y ago
      Except the gp was specifically talking about strangers, and your link points out that this Russian phrase is overfamiliar for strangers. That is the whole point! From the gp (I usually don't care how some stranger feels, why should I?) It’s a whole other issue if your friend says it, but that isn’t what he was talking about.

asveikau 8y ago

I get tired of articles and people that put us Americans all in the same smiley "how's your day going so far?" box. Maybe the average is like that in most places, and sure you can draw contrasts to other places. But as a grumpy east coaster living out west I find it somewhat irritating too, and I know I am not alone in this.

GordonS 8y ago
Hey, UK person here. Every time I visit the US or deal with customers from the US, I'm bombarded with fake well-wishing, accompanied by equally fake grins. You've given me some glimmer of hope that it's not quite everyone in the US who is like that!

usaphp 8y ago

I would rather look at smiling people around me, even if the smile means nothing, than looking at sad faces in Russia. Everytime I go back to visit friends I notice how grumpy and angry most people look and you become to look like that too - the more you look at them.

gandhium 8y ago
This. Having lived in Soviet Union (which was even grumpier) I cannot agree more with you.
sattoshi 8y ago
Not this. Having lived in Russia, this is something which is neither good nor bad. It just is. The faces are not sad or grumpy, they are relaxed. Nobody pretends to be happier than they are. You just got used to smiles everywhere. There is nothing more to it. At least in Russia, when someone smiles at you, it means something.
- majewsky 8y ago
  > The faces are not sad or grumpy, they are relaxed. Same for me. I sometimes make a deliberate effort to smile to appear more approachable, but smiling is far from the resting position ofy face muscles. (I'm German.)
- usaphp 8y ago
  When an average American is forcing his smiling just to make my day better it means more to me than a grumpy face of an average Russian, and makes my day better, and I don’t care if he is really happy or not, he made me happy, that’s what I like about American smiles

kpil 8y ago

It means you're drunk.

ClintEhrlich 8y ago

As an American who spent a year as a visiting researcher inside Russia's Foreign Ministry, I can confirm that these differences in decorum are very real. They are common knowledge in Russian society, and Russian diplomats are trained to take them into account when emulating Western social graces. Broadly speaking, in my experience Russians conceive of smiling as something precious, to be shared with friends or family, not wasted on strangers crossing your path. However, if you have occasion to interact with someone (e.g., asking for directions), they may smile, particularly if something about the conversation generates a feeling of closeness. I got a lot of smiles and handshakes in Moscow from strangers when they found out I was studying at MGIMO, since they (incorrectly) assumed it meant I'd snubbed Harvard or Yale.

salgernon 8y ago

I'm a US person. While going through aggressive cancer treatment and concomitant depression, I was encouraged by my caregivers to smile as much as possible to elevate my mood. They even encouraged me practice smiling while alone. N=1, but this did seem to help. It seemed to lower my stress when around other people, and I noticed that they would be smiling more too (although this may just be because I was finally noticing something that was going on around me.) Otherwise I have "resting porg face".

phyller 8y ago

I see the smile, in my personal slice of American culture, to be a sign that "I mean you no harm, I have positive intentions towards you", which is a valuable piece of information, both to give and receive. And truthfully, someone who is not feeling well disposed towards me and intends to make my life more difficult rarely approaches with a smile. Perhaps in Russia people are not so open about their intentions to each other and these outward indicators have less value?

bearburger 8y ago
> I mean you no harm, I have positive intentions towards you But what is the point of smile as "intention indicator" if literally everyone around are smiling to each other? Do you want to say that in the US seller that trying to sell defective goods wouldn't smile?
- phyller 8y ago
  Well usually everyone around you means you no harm. The person who looks at you and doesn't smile is legitimately more likely to not care if you get hit by a bus or not, even if they have no ill intention towards you. The crazy guy whose alternate personality is telling him to stab you is definitely not smiling but staring at you and muttering to himself. Of course context matters. I don't trust a smile from a used car salesman. I trust a smile more from someone I am playing basketball with, or that I pass while hiking in the woods as they have no incentive to deceive me. And if I don't get a smile from someone I pass while hiking in the woods I would be more on my guard.
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]

pndd90 8y ago

'Smiling' with no reason is a sign of stupidity.This should be 'laugther'. Also, the same goes for hugs. I can never get used to why Americans want to hug strangers, especially men.

deleted 8y ago

[deleted]

jancsika 8y ago

> If she answered honestly (“I’m tired”), which is what felt most natural, she worried she’d come off as rude. I'm not understanding the word "natural" here. Would her honesty be given in a spirit of satire, confusion, fear, something else? For example, suppose in response to her saying, "I'm tired," I replied, "Now that we've established your propensity for reflexive honesty in response to unexpected questions, what is your bank account and routing number?" Would she take the joke in a spirit of playfulness, or alarm? Edit: clarification

stcredzero 8y ago

Even dealing with a simple “How are you?” felt complicated. People in Russia didn’t engage in this kind of social script, and to her it seemed unnecessary. Did they really want to know how she was? No. This reminds me of my younger self. I would pause and reply with an unvarnished and detailed analysis of my current status. Is it just me, or do other people think that some cultures shifted a bit on the Aspergers spectrum from other cultures? I certainly think that's the case for some subcultures.

dsabanin 8y ago

As a Russian, living in America, I would suggest not to take any clues about social behavior from Russians. It's all shades of dysfunctional from the bottom to the very top.

hurpaDurpa 8y ago

Sometimes I wonder how these sorts of cultural subtleties are compensated for, when defining a set of clinical psychological personality disorders. Cluster A (paranoia): https://www.mentalhelp.net/articles/dsm-5-the-ten-personality-disorders-cluster-a/ https://www.mentalhelp.net/articles/dsm-5-the-ten-personalit... Cluster B (drama): https://www.mentalhelp.net/articles/dsm-5-the-ten-personality-disorders-cluster-b/ https://www.mentalhelp.net/articles/dsm-5-the-ten-personalit... Clister C (anxiety): https://www.mentalhelp.net/articles/dsm-5-the-ten-personality-disorders-cluster-c/ https://www.mentalhelp.net/articles/dsm-5-the-ten-personalit... Take either culture's description, and stack it next to the other, and the incompatible resolution or reconcilliation between the two certainly sounds like it could add up to any of those disorders. When you listen to the sort of discomfort and culture shock that seems implicit in these stories of adaptation, to the wrong set of ears, this all might sound like mental illness. Growing up in one place, and then living in another, only to feel the longing pangs of nostalia and familiarity for what your childhood instict defines or recognizes as normal, clash with the reality of a world turned upsidedown, feels like a recipe for being plied with medication, if you tell the wrong person. It feels like this process scaled up to millions of people, is exactly the sort of thing that drives conflict around the world.