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> Yeah, so alienated over here with the 90% of desktop users not using one of those. Don't see why you're taking this so personally that you feel the need to re

> Yeah, so alienated over here with the 90% of desktop users not using one of those. Don't see why you're taking this so personally that you feel the need to resort to some kind of personal attack. I'm sorry, I didn't intend it as an attack, just a remark that you seem to be asking for something that very few in the open source world are providing. Yes, 90% of desktop users use Windows. But Linux is not Windows, and neither is Haiku, and so I'm not sure why you're upset that we've decided to go a route more Linuxy than Windowsy here. And I also note that Windows has an app store now, and more and more apps are showing up on it. So there's that. > I prefer the simplicity, flexibility, and non-conflicting nature of appdirs. And as an OS developer and package maintainer, I prefer the tradeoff the other way. You are of course more than free to create AppImage-style HPKGs on your own. :) > I think that package management has no place in a desktop OS, so when Haiku added one I lost interest. Well, it seems most of the open source world disagrees with you very much, then.

AnIdiotOnTheNet 8y ago
> I'm sorry, I didn't intend it as an attack, just a remark that you seem to be asking for something that very few in the open source world are providing. Yes, this is a continual source of frustration for me. Every time someone starts a new desktop OS project they just keep making the same mistakes (at least I think they are mistakes) and we end up with what is essentially another Linux distro. > Yes, 90% of desktop users use Windows. But Linux is not Windows, and neither is Haiku, and so I'm not sure why you're upset that we've decided to go a route more Linuxy than Windowsy here. Because there are approximately 200 Linux distributions that already went that route and they're not particularly useful dekstop OSs either. Haiku already had an uphill battle in lack of software and hardware support, but the more it makes itself like a Linux distro the less reason I see to choose it over a Linux distro. > And as an OS developer and package maintainer, I prefer the tradeoff the other way. Yes, exactly. You like package management because it makes your life easier, not because it makes the system simpler, and not because it provides more flexibility for the user. > You are of course more than free to create AppImage-style HPKGs on your own. :) I could do that in Linux or Windows, why bother doing it for an OS with even less hardware and software support? If an OS wants me to use it over something else then I need compelling reasons. > Well, it seems most of the open source world disagrees with you very much, then. Perhaps that's part of the reason they have so few desktop users. I can only speak for myself here.
- waddlesplash 8y ago
  > (at least I think they are mistakes) > Because there are approximately 200 Linux distributions that already went that route and they're not particularly useful dekstop OSs either I think the mistakes of Linux are having a system that "stacks up" components without any overall design philosophy or any sort of vertical integration. In my days before Haiku, I used Linux a lot, and was continually frustrated with how every upgrade audio would break, or the video codecs wouldn't play audio, or ... well, a lot of other issues that were fixable, but every time I had to edit a config file or rebuild something myself was very annoying. That's why Linux isn't a useful desktop OS for me, not because of the package manager, which actually makes it somewhat tolerable. Haiku doesn't have those issues: if something doesn't work, it's our fault, not the kernel team's fault, or the X11 team's fault, or the alsa team's fault, etc. And that also means we can design the interconnections between these systems to be slimmer and more efficient than Linux did, since they need to support "component swapping." > Yes, exactly. You like package management because it makes your life easier, not because it makes the system simpler, and not because it provides more flexibility for the user. Yes, it makes my life easier as a developer. But it also makes my life easier as a user: Why am I going to go search a website I barely trust for a zip file that I extract and then add symlinks to? I much prefer the one-click-install model, thanks, and I know a lot of users that do too. I don't know what flexibility I've lost that. As I've said above, I can still install packages in `~`, and extract them if I really did want to put it somewhere besides that. So what can I not do now that I could before? > If an OS wants me to use it over something else then I need compelling reasons. > Perhaps that's part of the reason they have so few desktop users. I can only speak for myself here. For me at least, as well as most Haiku users I know, the reasons are the ones I outlined above, not the package manager.
  - AnIdiotOnTheNet 8y ago
    > I think the mistakes of Linux are having a system that "stacks up" components without any overall design philosophy or any sort of vertical integration. [...] That's why Linux isn't a useful desktop OS for me, not because of the package manager, which actually makes it somewhat tolerable. I agree, but I think the reason Linux is this way, where everything depends on multiple other things even while they frequently break and have no integration, is at least in part because of the reliance on package management. If Linux had a stable base set of shared libraries developers could depend on and applications were distributed as appdirs, then developers are disincentivised towards non-base-system dependencies because they'd have to include them. You could then use what few advantages shared libraries offer (security updates, slightly less wasted space) for the most important things in the system while still allowing the simplicity and flexibility offered by applications just being a folder. > Yes, it makes my life easier as a developer. But it also makes my life easier as a user. Sure, as long as you only ever want to work within the confines of what is provided by the package manager. There's a difference between "easy" and "simple". I prefer "simple" because it can be understood and reasoned about and conformed to my use case. "Easy" requires the system to try and understand what I want, and we know how well that works for youtube, netflix, and amazon recommendations. > I don't know what flexibility I've lost that. As I've said above, I can still install packages in `~`, and extract them if I really did want to put it somewhere besides that. Can you put an application on a USB drive, take it to another Haiku system, and run it from the USB drive without installation? Can I have 3 different versions of the same application, each on a different volume? Can I created a folder hierarchy and place applications in it according to my own organizational criteria? If so, maybe Haiku's packaging system isn't so awful. I expect that isn't the case except for a handful of applications though based on what you've said previously.
dragonwriter 8y ago
> Yes, 90% of desktop users use Windows. Windows has both a consumer-focussed App store and a developer-focussed package manager [0]. [0] well, okay, the latter is for .NET rather than Windows per se.
- AnIdiotOnTheNet 8y ago
  Yes, among many other hateable things MS has done to Windows lately, they've started adopting the bad ideas from OSS. But, Windows also has the best hardware and software support of any desktop operating system by a wide margin, so if I'm going to use an OS I don't like I may as well use the one that lets me run the software I want on the hardware I have.
- probonopd 8y ago
  And almost no one uses them. Or did you get your Photoshop in the Windows Store?

AnIdiotOnTheNet 8y ago

> I'm sorry, I didn't intend it as an attack, just a remark that you seem to be asking for something that very few in the open source world are providing. Yes, this is a continual source of frustration for me. Every time someone starts a new desktop OS project they just keep making the same mistakes (at least I think they are mistakes) and we end up with what is essentially another Linux distro. > Yes, 90% of desktop users use Windows. But Linux is not Windows, and neither is Haiku, and so I'm not sure why you're upset that we've decided to go a route more Linuxy than Windowsy here. Because there are approximately 200 Linux distributions that already went that route and they're not particularly useful dekstop OSs either. Haiku already had an uphill battle in lack of software and hardware support, but the more it makes itself like a Linux distro the less reason I see to choose it over a Linux distro. > And as an OS developer and package maintainer, I prefer the tradeoff the other way. Yes, exactly. You like package management because it makes your life easier, not because it makes the system simpler, and not because it provides more flexibility for the user. > You are of course more than free to create AppImage-style HPKGs on your own. :) I could do that in Linux or Windows, why bother doing it for an OS with even less hardware and software support? If an OS wants me to use it over something else then I need compelling reasons. > Well, it seems most of the open source world disagrees with you very much, then. Perhaps that's part of the reason they have so few desktop users. I can only speak for myself here.

waddlesplash 8y ago
> (at least I think they are mistakes) > Because there are approximately 200 Linux distributions that already went that route and they're not particularly useful dekstop OSs either I think the mistakes of Linux are having a system that "stacks up" components without any overall design philosophy or any sort of vertical integration. In my days before Haiku, I used Linux a lot, and was continually frustrated with how every upgrade audio would break, or the video codecs wouldn't play audio, or ... well, a lot of other issues that were fixable, but every time I had to edit a config file or rebuild something myself was very annoying. That's why Linux isn't a useful desktop OS for me, not because of the package manager, which actually makes it somewhat tolerable. Haiku doesn't have those issues: if something doesn't work, it's our fault, not the kernel team's fault, or the X11 team's fault, or the alsa team's fault, etc. And that also means we can design the interconnections between these systems to be slimmer and more efficient than Linux did, since they need to support "component swapping." > Yes, exactly. You like package management because it makes your life easier, not because it makes the system simpler, and not because it provides more flexibility for the user. Yes, it makes my life easier as a developer. But it also makes my life easier as a user: Why am I going to go search a website I barely trust for a zip file that I extract and then add symlinks to? I much prefer the one-click-install model, thanks, and I know a lot of users that do too. I don't know what flexibility I've lost that. As I've said above, I can still install packages in `~`, and extract them if I really did want to put it somewhere besides that. So what can I not do now that I could before? > If an OS wants me to use it over something else then I need compelling reasons. > Perhaps that's part of the reason they have so few desktop users. I can only speak for myself here. For me at least, as well as most Haiku users I know, the reasons are the ones I outlined above, not the package manager.
- AnIdiotOnTheNet 8y ago
  > I think the mistakes of Linux are having a system that "stacks up" components without any overall design philosophy or any sort of vertical integration. [...] That's why Linux isn't a useful desktop OS for me, not because of the package manager, which actually makes it somewhat tolerable. I agree, but I think the reason Linux is this way, where everything depends on multiple other things even while they frequently break and have no integration, is at least in part because of the reliance on package management. If Linux had a stable base set of shared libraries developers could depend on and applications were distributed as appdirs, then developers are disincentivised towards non-base-system dependencies because they'd have to include them. You could then use what few advantages shared libraries offer (security updates, slightly less wasted space) for the most important things in the system while still allowing the simplicity and flexibility offered by applications just being a folder. > Yes, it makes my life easier as a developer. But it also makes my life easier as a user. Sure, as long as you only ever want to work within the confines of what is provided by the package manager. There's a difference between "easy" and "simple". I prefer "simple" because it can be understood and reasoned about and conformed to my use case. "Easy" requires the system to try and understand what I want, and we know how well that works for youtube, netflix, and amazon recommendations. > I don't know what flexibility I've lost that. As I've said above, I can still install packages in `~`, and extract them if I really did want to put it somewhere besides that. Can you put an application on a USB drive, take it to another Haiku system, and run it from the USB drive without installation? Can I have 3 different versions of the same application, each on a different volume? Can I created a folder hierarchy and place applications in it according to my own organizational criteria? If so, maybe Haiku's packaging system isn't so awful. I expect that isn't the case except for a handful of applications though based on what you've said previously.

dragonwriter 8y ago

> Yes, 90% of desktop users use Windows. Windows has both a consumer-focussed App store and a developer-focussed package manager [0]. [0] well, okay, the latter is for .NET rather than Windows per se.

AnIdiotOnTheNet 8y ago
Yes, among many other hateable things MS has done to Windows lately, they've started adopting the bad ideas from OSS. But, Windows also has the best hardware and software support of any desktop operating system by a wide margin, so if I'm going to use an OS I don't like I may as well use the one that lets me run the software I want on the hardware I have.
probonopd 8y ago
And almost no one uses them. Or did you get your Photoshop in the Windows Store?