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For college students, I absolutely recommend transferring up if your GPA is above 3.8 and you're attending a lower-tier school. Your alma mater will resonate t

For college students, I absolutely recommend transferring up if your GPA is above 3.8 and you're attending a lower-tier school. Your alma mater will resonate throughout your career. Your GPA will disappear after your first or second job. Better to get a C at MIT than an A at RPI.

WhompingWindows 8y ago
As someone who went to both top tier and mid tier schools, I have not found that neither have ever really come up in job interviews or my career The vast majority of people around me don't particularly know which schools are actually top tier, nor do they care what I did there or my GPA. What matters is your output, especially in science, where the question is much more about what you published/what grant funding you got than which institution you're at.
latencyloser 8y ago
As someone who went to a "lower-tier" school. I hate how true this feels sometimes. My colleagues who went to big name schools all seem to be in some sort of "club" together. At least, they have shared experiences that I have no such ability to relate to. They've been "elite" tech people since before they were in the job force. That being said, the only time I feel this is in social settings and it's usually minor. People ask where I went to school and then I usually get an "oh?" back, as they've never heard of it. But it's never really impacted my professional life to my knowledge. Maybe I didn't get the same opportunities as these people as quickly, but I've worked at and enjoyed success at a few of the big names and am enjoying my time at a well known "start up" now. Kids, go to school where you can afford. Bust your ass, make connections, move on and move up. School doesn't matter once you're out of it.
- andrewmcwatters 8y ago
  > They've been "elite" tech people since before they were in the job force. By what standard? What does that life look like? It seems so foreign to me. It seems like a lot of HN is comprised of this sort of folk or people who know them. I don't work in the Bay Area, I work in Phoenix. I imagine it's a different world out there: instead of saving 90% of my income and living in a van, I own a home and save 75%. Instead of talking to people who work at Apple and went to MIT, I talk to people who were self-taught, or attended some other institution I'm not familiar with. Even the people that I do know who went off to work at Amazon, Apple, or Google aren't even that great of engineers. In fact, they're probably worse engineers than the ones I know at Fortune 500s which aren't even tech companies. I've seen people who had 25+ years of experience lose a job position to someone who didn't know what `setInterval` was. To me, an "elite" tech person would be someone who wrote software that people actually cared about and had a strong amount of domain knowledge in a particular area, or prototyped hardware and sold a product that people bought. Even then, these people are flawed just like everyone else. Not too long ago, the author of Redis posted an article about shortcomings of Lua here on HN, and a deep inspection of his post simply yielded the finding that he wrote a Lua binding with a glaring exploit in it, and his entire article revolved around trying to justify his own flaws. To me having parents that have money doesn't make you elite; it's just something to think is rather nice and want to work toward as well. It seems to me that there exists a demographic of people in tech that seem impressive to others, but haven't actually contributed anything significant or tangible to the industry. They probably exist in senior positions of companies that I've never heard of that serve a niche that I'm not a part of. I don't know, but they aren't "elite" to me. Kids, do and make things people care about. School doesn't matter at all. Learning matters. Spending a small fortune to maybe associate with people who will get you a job is trying to play the lottery, but with a far more expensive ticket. When you're denied a job at a startup after receiving multiple degrees ask yourself if it was worth it. It takes 30 minutes to invalidate 4-8 years of your hard work. People want people who can do the job.
  - sadamznintern 8y ago
    >By what standard? What does that life look like? It seems so foreign to me. It seems like a lot of HN is comprised of this sort of folk or people who know them. That life looks like living in Seattle or the Bay or New York, making somewhere between $180-$230k a year first year out of undergrad, being able to travel for concerts and live in luxe Airbnbs with your similarly elite and pedigreed friends. >Even the people that I do know who went off to work at Amazon, Apple, or Google aren't even that great of engineers. In fact, they're probably worse engineers than the ones I know at Fortune 500s which aren't even tech companies. I think this is a reasonable viewpoint if you believe society (or even people) cares about how skilled you are in your craft. Unfortunately, society doesn't, and rather only cares about how much you make. As such, society will always consider a jet-setting Facebook or Google new grad making $250k her first year because of a signing bonus or negotiation skills superior to someone who graduated from ASU working at Amazon/Cisco/HP/etc companies making $150k or god forbid, even less. There's a lifestyle difference that I'll never be able to match.
    - andrewmcwatters 8y ago
      Thanks for sharing. Still curious how sustainable the lifestyle is if you're married, or if it's possible at all. Any thoughts? The folks in Phoenix out here can't make that type of money unless they're a Principle Software Engineer/Architect/VP or higher if they can manage to negotiate it otherwise it's reserved to management. Anecdotally, I've seen the CEO of Recruiting.com underpay his seniors heavily.
      - sadamznintern 8y ago
        Most people don't get married in their early/mid 20's anymore. At least if they work at FB/Google and are native-born Americans. And if they do, their partner makes about as much at a similar company. > The folks in Phoenix out here can't make that type of money unless they're a Principle Software Engineer/Architect/VP or higher If they work at Amazon they can as an L6 or above.
  - antirez 8y ago
- commandlinefan 8y ago
  > As someone who went to a "lower-tier" school. I hate how true this feels sometimes. So much so that I often feel like I would have been better off never having gone to college in the first place than having gone somewhere not in the top 50 (or even in the top 10). Presenting yourself with no degree at all as a "tenacious, self-taught fighter" feels better than "I went to the University of Bubba because MIT said you're not smart enough" (plus MIT is really far from where I grew up and really expensive). On the other hand, I've worked with plenty of really smart programmers who don't have a degree who've felt that not having one has held them back - although I've always wondered why they don't just go back and get one.
- BeetleB 8y ago
  >That being said, the only time I feel this is in social settings and it's usually minor. People ask where I went to school and then I usually get an "oh?" back, as they've never heard of it. But it's never really impacted my professional life to my knowledge. I work at a top tech firm, and while we hire across the board, at the micro level I have seen strong biases by some managers for the top tech schools. As an example, I once forwarded the resume of an undergrad whose GPA was decent (not stellar), but whose resume indicated strong initiative and interests related to software (Lisp, etc - material not taught in that school). He made lots of excuses not to even interview this person. And later hired someone with a really low GPA (low 2.x), but he was from Berkeley! This person did well in the interview, but the candidate from a lower ranked school never even got an interview.
- ng12 8y ago
  The absolute best engineer I've ever had the pleasure of working with went to the most no-name of all no-name schools. He now works on cool stuff at a big name company and is very famous within his domain. It really doesn't matter.
- qubax 8y ago
  > But it's never really impacted my professional life to my knowledge. Depends on the level of attainment you are hoping to achieve. If you want to become a major player in your company or industry, it most definitely has affected your professional career. Social settings are everything when it comes to business and tech when the higher up the ladder you go. If your aspirations are just a 9-5 programmer or at most a tech lead for your team, then your alma mater and your relationships and common bonding experience doesn't matter much. But if you have higher aspirations, then your connections, relationships and how you play within social settings matter. One of the easiest ways to bond is with share experiences. And shared college experience is one of the easiest avenues to shared experience. > Kids, go to school where you can afford. Bust your ass, make connections, move on and move up. Unless it's an ivy league, stanford, MIT, etc. Then do whatever you can to attend because these names and the connections you make in top tier colleges will serve you forever. You get an opportunity to hang around with the children of the leaders of major world nations. The children of top business, tech, political, etc elites. > School doesn't matter once you're out of it. GPA doesn't matter. Your school does matter if ( a big if ) it is top tier. And it matters even more internationally. Go anywhere in the world and tell people you are from harvard or yale or stanford. Trust me on this. There are doors only open to these people. The only time you should mortgage your future on college is for one of the top elite colleges. Anything else, just go to the one that makes the most business sense to you.
arcanus 8y ago
> Better to get a C at MIT than an A at RPI. That is a poor example. RPI is an excellent institution. After you get past the top-50 or so schools, reputation matters far less. If you are truly attending a 'low-tier' school then MIT might matter, but for most jobs the vast majority of institutions are only small differences. For my first job post PhD I was told I was selected over folks from Stanford and Princeton: my doctorate was 'only' from UT Austin. I've also sat on admissions and fellowship committees for doctoral programs and students. GPA matters more, at least among the 'good' schools. And even then, I've never seen a 2.0 student beat a decent GPA (3.5+). Now after about 3.3-onward, I agree that GPA does not matter a bit. In fact, I'm adverse to hiring or selecting students with a 4.0. This typically indicates a poor optimization heuristic (GPA over learning/challenges/interests).
- hitekker 8y ago
  I graduated from RPI summa cum laude, with a dual major, in two honor societies, and went straight to a tech giant, working as a software engineer. So I have standing to say that RPI has been mismanaged as an institution. Besides my personal experience, RPI's political troubles are well-documented and well-known [1][2][3]. With failed leadership and failed policies, this university has come to sit below CMU which itself is just below MIT. UT Austin is a fine school from what I heard, and does not seem to have the toxicity of the RPI brand. That is, a second-rate school for second-rate students. [1]https://www.chronicle.com/article/How-One-Leader-Set-a-Toxic/240655 https://www.chronicle.com/article/How-One-Leader-Set-a-Toxic... [2]https://news.vice.com/article/americas-highest-paid-college-president-is-dragging-her-school-into-crippling-debt https://news.vice.com/article/americas-highest-paid-college-... [3] https://www.timesunion.com/local/article/Troubled-alumni-stop-donating-12512869.php https://www.timesunion.com/local/article/Troubled-alumni-sto... Man, does this list goes on.
  - audiolion 8y ago
    My brother graduated from RPI early because stuff with Shirley was so bad, she is a crazy dictator of a leader and I heard horror stories from both Professors who were under immense pressure to publish and students who were paying 65k a year for an education from professors who were under too much pressure to publish to be effective teachers.
nashashmi 8y ago
> Better to get a C at MIT than an A at RPI. Better to be a top student in an average school than to be an average student in top school. More opportunities are offered to the better students. More chances to grow come about too.
pimmen 8y ago
A big problem though is that a college is such a big institution with an array of faculties in it and every single course credit can piggy back that reputation. The government of Sweden does routine quality checks on the university program (we don’t do the whole major/minor thing, we have focused programs) and my computer engineering program in a small university was ranked second while KTH and Chalmers were tied for last and were ordered to change their programs to keep giving out engineering degrees in that field. In case you’re not Swedish, those two are the most renowned schools. What’s in a name? That which we call a rose, By any other name would smell as sweet. - William Shakespeare
akhilcacharya 8y ago
Unfortunately, if you have "only" a 3.8 good luck transferring. I looked into it my freshman year (I had a 3.89 :/) but getting into any of the top-tier schools is even more difficult as a transfer than out of high school, especially since I hadn't started a company or done cutting edge research yet. Unfortunately, my school is going to resonate (poorly) throughout my career now.
- commandlinefan 8y ago
  Well, it's not really as bad as some of these folks might be making it seem - the ones who say that what matters is what you can do more than where you went to school are more right than wrong. If anything, you'll worry more about your own "lower tier" education than anybody you actually work with. There'll be a few snobs, but their opinions won't matter enough to hurt you. I started taking classes in community college while I was still in high school (they had a special program for kids with an aptitude for math and science), and had completed an associates degree from a "junior college" before I finished high school. Only thing was, my two-year degree GPA was nothing to brag about at that point. Maybe if I was smarter, I would have just started back over as a freshman at a four-year university, but I wasn't either that smart or that motivated, so I transferred to a four-year college that would accept me with the academic transcript I had. (Also one close to home). Although I managed to bring my GPA up before I graduated, I still went to a college that doesn't even show up on the "US News and World Report" list of the "smart people" colleges. I don't think it's really hurt me; it might have slowed me down just a bit and cost me some opportunities that I'll never know I would actually have had, but I'm very comfortable where I am - don't sweat it, study hard, learn a lot, and enjoy being young.
  - akhilcacharya 8y ago
    > I started taking classes in community college while I was still in high school (they had a special program for kids with an aptitude for math and science), and had completed an associates degree from a "junior college" before I finished high school. I did this too, so I can definitely relate there. Went to undergrad 15 miles from home and commuted my last year. > and enjoy being young. I'm afraid only the elites get to enjoy themselves when they're young. The rest of us aren't so lucky.
internetman55 8y ago
I'm not a hiring manager but id pick A RPI student for engineering work.

WhompingWindows 8y ago

As someone who went to both top tier and mid tier schools, I have not found that neither have ever really come up in job interviews or my career The vast majority of people around me don't particularly know which schools are actually top tier, nor do they care what I did there or my GPA. What matters is your output, especially in science, where the question is much more about what you published/what grant funding you got than which institution you're at.

latencyloser 8y ago

As someone who went to a "lower-tier" school. I hate how true this feels sometimes. My colleagues who went to big name schools all seem to be in some sort of "club" together. At least, they have shared experiences that I have no such ability to relate to. They've been "elite" tech people since before they were in the job force. That being said, the only time I feel this is in social settings and it's usually minor. People ask where I went to school and then I usually get an "oh?" back, as they've never heard of it. But it's never really impacted my professional life to my knowledge. Maybe I didn't get the same opportunities as these people as quickly, but I've worked at and enjoyed success at a few of the big names and am enjoying my time at a well known "start up" now. Kids, go to school where you can afford. Bust your ass, make connections, move on and move up. School doesn't matter once you're out of it.

andrewmcwatters 8y ago
> They've been "elite" tech people since before they were in the job force. By what standard? What does that life look like? It seems so foreign to me. It seems like a lot of HN is comprised of this sort of folk or people who know them. I don't work in the Bay Area, I work in Phoenix. I imagine it's a different world out there: instead of saving 90% of my income and living in a van, I own a home and save 75%. Instead of talking to people who work at Apple and went to MIT, I talk to people who were self-taught, or attended some other institution I'm not familiar with. Even the people that I do know who went off to work at Amazon, Apple, or Google aren't even that great of engineers. In fact, they're probably worse engineers than the ones I know at Fortune 500s which aren't even tech companies. I've seen people who had 25+ years of experience lose a job position to someone who didn't know what `setInterval` was. To me, an "elite" tech person would be someone who wrote software that people actually cared about and had a strong amount of domain knowledge in a particular area, or prototyped hardware and sold a product that people bought. Even then, these people are flawed just like everyone else. Not too long ago, the author of Redis posted an article about shortcomings of Lua here on HN, and a deep inspection of his post simply yielded the finding that he wrote a Lua binding with a glaring exploit in it, and his entire article revolved around trying to justify his own flaws. To me having parents that have money doesn't make you elite; it's just something to think is rather nice and want to work toward as well. It seems to me that there exists a demographic of people in tech that seem impressive to others, but haven't actually contributed anything significant or tangible to the industry. They probably exist in senior positions of companies that I've never heard of that serve a niche that I'm not a part of. I don't know, but they aren't "elite" to me. Kids, do and make things people care about. School doesn't matter at all. Learning matters. Spending a small fortune to maybe associate with people who will get you a job is trying to play the lottery, but with a far more expensive ticket. When you're denied a job at a startup after receiving multiple degrees ask yourself if it was worth it. It takes 30 minutes to invalidate 4-8 years of your hard work. People want people who can do the job.
- sadamznintern 8y ago
  >By what standard? What does that life look like? It seems so foreign to me. It seems like a lot of HN is comprised of this sort of folk or people who know them. That life looks like living in Seattle or the Bay or New York, making somewhere between $180-$230k a year first year out of undergrad, being able to travel for concerts and live in luxe Airbnbs with your similarly elite and pedigreed friends. >Even the people that I do know who went off to work at Amazon, Apple, or Google aren't even that great of engineers. In fact, they're probably worse engineers than the ones I know at Fortune 500s which aren't even tech companies. I think this is a reasonable viewpoint if you believe society (or even people) cares about how skilled you are in your craft. Unfortunately, society doesn't, and rather only cares about how much you make. As such, society will always consider a jet-setting Facebook or Google new grad making $250k her first year because of a signing bonus or negotiation skills superior to someone who graduated from ASU working at Amazon/Cisco/HP/etc companies making $150k or god forbid, even less. There's a lifestyle difference that I'll never be able to match.
  - andrewmcwatters 8y ago
    Thanks for sharing. Still curious how sustainable the lifestyle is if you're married, or if it's possible at all. Any thoughts? The folks in Phoenix out here can't make that type of money unless they're a Principle Software Engineer/Architect/VP or higher if they can manage to negotiate it otherwise it's reserved to management. Anecdotally, I've seen the CEO of Recruiting.com underpay his seniors heavily.
    - sadamznintern 8y ago
      Most people don't get married in their early/mid 20's anymore. At least if they work at FB/Google and are native-born Americans. And if they do, their partner makes about as much at a similar company. > The folks in Phoenix out here can't make that type of money unless they're a Principle Software Engineer/Architect/VP or higher If they work at Amazon they can as an L6 or above.
- antirez 8y ago
commandlinefan 8y ago
> As someone who went to a "lower-tier" school. I hate how true this feels sometimes. So much so that I often feel like I would have been better off never having gone to college in the first place than having gone somewhere not in the top 50 (or even in the top 10). Presenting yourself with no degree at all as a "tenacious, self-taught fighter" feels better than "I went to the University of Bubba because MIT said you're not smart enough" (plus MIT is really far from where I grew up and really expensive). On the other hand, I've worked with plenty of really smart programmers who don't have a degree who've felt that not having one has held them back - although I've always wondered why they don't just go back and get one.
BeetleB 8y ago
>That being said, the only time I feel this is in social settings and it's usually minor. People ask where I went to school and then I usually get an "oh?" back, as they've never heard of it. But it's never really impacted my professional life to my knowledge. I work at a top tech firm, and while we hire across the board, at the micro level I have seen strong biases by some managers for the top tech schools. As an example, I once forwarded the resume of an undergrad whose GPA was decent (not stellar), but whose resume indicated strong initiative and interests related to software (Lisp, etc - material not taught in that school). He made lots of excuses not to even interview this person. And later hired someone with a really low GPA (low 2.x), but he was from Berkeley! This person did well in the interview, but the candidate from a lower ranked school never even got an interview.
ng12 8y ago
The absolute best engineer I've ever had the pleasure of working with went to the most no-name of all no-name schools. He now works on cool stuff at a big name company and is very famous within his domain. It really doesn't matter.
qubax 8y ago
> But it's never really impacted my professional life to my knowledge. Depends on the level of attainment you are hoping to achieve. If you want to become a major player in your company or industry, it most definitely has affected your professional career. Social settings are everything when it comes to business and tech when the higher up the ladder you go. If your aspirations are just a 9-5 programmer or at most a tech lead for your team, then your alma mater and your relationships and common bonding experience doesn't matter much. But if you have higher aspirations, then your connections, relationships and how you play within social settings matter. One of the easiest ways to bond is with share experiences. And shared college experience is one of the easiest avenues to shared experience. > Kids, go to school where you can afford. Bust your ass, make connections, move on and move up. Unless it's an ivy league, stanford, MIT, etc. Then do whatever you can to attend because these names and the connections you make in top tier colleges will serve you forever. You get an opportunity to hang around with the children of the leaders of major world nations. The children of top business, tech, political, etc elites. > School doesn't matter once you're out of it. GPA doesn't matter. Your school does matter if ( a big if ) it is top tier. And it matters even more internationally. Go anywhere in the world and tell people you are from harvard or yale or stanford. Trust me on this. There are doors only open to these people. The only time you should mortgage your future on college is for one of the top elite colleges. Anything else, just go to the one that makes the most business sense to you.

arcanus 8y ago

> Better to get a C at MIT than an A at RPI. That is a poor example. RPI is an excellent institution. After you get past the top-50 or so schools, reputation matters far less. If you are truly attending a 'low-tier' school then MIT might matter, but for most jobs the vast majority of institutions are only small differences. For my first job post PhD I was told I was selected over folks from Stanford and Princeton: my doctorate was 'only' from UT Austin. I've also sat on admissions and fellowship committees for doctoral programs and students. GPA matters more, at least among the 'good' schools. And even then, I've never seen a 2.0 student beat a decent GPA (3.5+). Now after about 3.3-onward, I agree that GPA does not matter a bit. In fact, I'm adverse to hiring or selecting students with a 4.0. This typically indicates a poor optimization heuristic (GPA over learning/challenges/interests).

hitekker 8y ago
I graduated from RPI summa cum laude, with a dual major, in two honor societies, and went straight to a tech giant, working as a software engineer. So I have standing to say that RPI has been mismanaged as an institution. Besides my personal experience, RPI's political troubles are well-documented and well-known [1][2][3]. With failed leadership and failed policies, this university has come to sit below CMU which itself is just below MIT. UT Austin is a fine school from what I heard, and does not seem to have the toxicity of the RPI brand. That is, a second-rate school for second-rate students. [1]https://www.chronicle.com/article/How-One-Leader-Set-a-Toxic/240655 https://www.chronicle.com/article/How-One-Leader-Set-a-Toxic... [2]https://news.vice.com/article/americas-highest-paid-college-president-is-dragging-her-school-into-crippling-debt https://news.vice.com/article/americas-highest-paid-college-... [3] https://www.timesunion.com/local/article/Troubled-alumni-stop-donating-12512869.php https://www.timesunion.com/local/article/Troubled-alumni-sto... Man, does this list goes on.
- audiolion 8y ago
  My brother graduated from RPI early because stuff with Shirley was so bad, she is a crazy dictator of a leader and I heard horror stories from both Professors who were under immense pressure to publish and students who were paying 65k a year for an education from professors who were under too much pressure to publish to be effective teachers.

nashashmi 8y ago

> Better to get a C at MIT than an A at RPI. Better to be a top student in an average school than to be an average student in top school. More opportunities are offered to the better students. More chances to grow come about too.

pimmen 8y ago

A big problem though is that a college is such a big institution with an array of faculties in it and every single course credit can piggy back that reputation. The government of Sweden does routine quality checks on the university program (we don’t do the whole major/minor thing, we have focused programs) and my computer engineering program in a small university was ranked second while KTH and Chalmers were tied for last and were ordered to change their programs to keep giving out engineering degrees in that field. In case you’re not Swedish, those two are the most renowned schools. What’s in a name? That which we call a rose, By any other name would smell as sweet. - William Shakespeare

akhilcacharya 8y ago

Unfortunately, if you have "only" a 3.8 good luck transferring. I looked into it my freshman year (I had a 3.89 :/) but getting into any of the top-tier schools is even more difficult as a transfer than out of high school, especially since I hadn't started a company or done cutting edge research yet. Unfortunately, my school is going to resonate (poorly) throughout my career now.

commandlinefan 8y ago
Well, it's not really as bad as some of these folks might be making it seem - the ones who say that what matters is what you can do more than where you went to school are more right than wrong. If anything, you'll worry more about your own "lower tier" education than anybody you actually work with. There'll be a few snobs, but their opinions won't matter enough to hurt you. I started taking classes in community college while I was still in high school (they had a special program for kids with an aptitude for math and science), and had completed an associates degree from a "junior college" before I finished high school. Only thing was, my two-year degree GPA was nothing to brag about at that point. Maybe if I was smarter, I would have just started back over as a freshman at a four-year university, but I wasn't either that smart or that motivated, so I transferred to a four-year college that would accept me with the academic transcript I had. (Also one close to home). Although I managed to bring my GPA up before I graduated, I still went to a college that doesn't even show up on the "US News and World Report" list of the "smart people" colleges. I don't think it's really hurt me; it might have slowed me down just a bit and cost me some opportunities that I'll never know I would actually have had, but I'm very comfortable where I am - don't sweat it, study hard, learn a lot, and enjoy being young.
- akhilcacharya 8y ago
  > I started taking classes in community college while I was still in high school (they had a special program for kids with an aptitude for math and science), and had completed an associates degree from a "junior college" before I finished high school. I did this too, so I can definitely relate there. Went to undergrad 15 miles from home and commuted my last year. > and enjoy being young. I'm afraid only the elites get to enjoy themselves when they're young. The rest of us aren't so lucky.

internetman55 8y ago

I'm not a hiring manager but id pick A RPI student for engineering work.