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Many reasons. S-expressions would be the least of my worries. Java is dying, not on the whole, but certainly in mindset of people who are picking new languages.

Many reasons. S-expressions would be the least of my worries. Java is dying, not on the whole, but certainly in mindset of people who are picking new languages. It’s integration with OSs, which Clojure depends on, is arcane by today standards. Second, it’s tightly controlled by one person, and they happen to hate types. Similar to CoffeeScript, couple years after the language inception people figure out that they miss types. Adding them back in is super tough. And third, abstractions have costs. There is no wide-spread popular LISP, and people should really ask themselves why. We have lots of code generation, and depend on it more and more. But it’s “simple” (or “primitive”). It’s usually one step. You can read the input, and you can read the output. I’m starting to get a sense that macros are like currying. Elegant, beautiful, powerful. But net negative if your concern is to get lots of people to create software together.

realusername 8y ago
> Java is dying, not on the whole, but certainly in mindset of people who are picking new languages Even as a whole it's slowing down heavily now, even Android is switching to Kotlin. The language is already not that trendy but Oracle's aggressive lawsuits is making it even worse.
- knightofmars 8y ago
  Nope. https://www.tiobe.com/tiobe-index/ https://www.tiobe.com/tiobe-index/
  - realusername 8y ago
    I did not say that it's still not used heavily, just that it's slowing down. And C is the second on that list so I'm not sure I would believe this ranking, I have not seen much C jobs for a while now.
    - knightofmars 8y ago
      "I have not seen much C jobs for a while now." Because your anecdotal evidence is more accurate than what this list (which describes its methodology) is showing you?
      - realusername 8y ago
        Yeah it is, because their methodology is shitty: https://www.tiobe.com/tiobe-index/programming-languages-definition/ https://www.tiobe.com/tiobe-index/programming-languages-defi..., they just use the google popularity of "[name] programing", it's not a mesure of anything. C jobs are very rare, and it's certainly not 14% of the programming jobs. Putting Java and C on the exact same level is a good sign something is wrong with what they are doing.
        Tomte 8y ago
        C jobs are certainly much more than 14%. Believe it or not. Most software developers don‘t hang out in internet forums, commit to GitHub or write blog posts about JavaScript frameworks. They just do their day job and go home to their family.
        kickopotomus 8y ago
        C jobs are not rare at all. I think you are failing to consider large chunks of the tech sector that operate outside of the web.
        realusername 8y ago
        > that operate outside of the web. Outside of the web, mobile, desktop apps and even gaming (mostly C++) you mean? C is used mainly in low level computing and embed nowadays.
        kickopotomus 8y ago
        Yes. That is correct. I fail to see your point since that is a large chunk of tech.
    - Tomte 8y ago
      That‘s because you‘re only thinking of desktop applications, mobile applications and web stuff. Embedded software is a vast market, and it‘s mostly C with a rising share of C++.
      - realusername 8y ago
        > Embedded software is a vast market Is it really? IoT still isn't taking off much and the more powerful the machines are getting (so every year), the less people are going to use C for that only tiny segment people are still using it for. Where I've used C on a microcontroller 10 years ago, you would likely use a cheap Android board nowadays.
        Tomte 8y ago
        Are you kidding me? Look around your home. Right now. How many things have software in them? How many things don‘t you see in your home? Everything in your home that doesn‘t include software has been manufactured and packaged. My employer makes components for industrial automation. Have you ever thought about it? Nobody does, unless he has direct contact. Building automation? Special machinery (huge presses or packaging machines). Whatever. And re: your Android board: come back when your bricolage conforms to all kinds of requirements. Extended temperature range. Vibration. Electromagnetic compatibility (it‘s easy to accidentally broadcast in the naval emergency band). Etc. etc.
        realusername 8y ago
        > Look around your home. Right now. How many things have software in them? Not much as much as you think, apart from the routers, computers and phone, the only other thing I can think of is the dishwasher because it's half-recent. And I suspect the new ones just include a cheap Android board. > And re: your Android board: come back when your bricolage conforms to all kinds of requirements. Extended temperature range. Vibration. Electromagnetic compatibility (it‘s easy to accidentally broadcast in the naval emergency band). Etc. etc. I've worked on a company which manufactured their own card, that is much harder to do by yourself than buying a board which has been produced at millions of units where they solved all those issues directly. You can't compete with that easily. We had at least 5 iterations to solve the magnetic and heat issues, all of that comes for free in a mass-produced board.
pjmlp 8y ago
Yeah, dying on SV startups maybe, that end up rewriting on Java if they ever manage to go big.
pka 8y ago
Re macros, I had a similar thought this morning. Except for code instrumentation and boilerplate generation I've actually never found macros to be useful. ADT DSLs + free monads or similar abstractions give you everything you need, in a more principled way.

realusername 8y ago

> Java is dying, not on the whole, but certainly in mindset of people who are picking new languages Even as a whole it's slowing down heavily now, even Android is switching to Kotlin. The language is already not that trendy but Oracle's aggressive lawsuits is making it even worse.

knightofmars 8y ago
Nope. https://www.tiobe.com/tiobe-index/ https://www.tiobe.com/tiobe-index/
- realusername 8y ago
  I did not say that it's still not used heavily, just that it's slowing down. And C is the second on that list so I'm not sure I would believe this ranking, I have not seen much C jobs for a while now.
  - knightofmars 8y ago
    "I have not seen much C jobs for a while now." Because your anecdotal evidence is more accurate than what this list (which describes its methodology) is showing you?
    - realusername 8y ago
      Yeah it is, because their methodology is shitty: https://www.tiobe.com/tiobe-index/programming-languages-definition/ https://www.tiobe.com/tiobe-index/programming-languages-defi..., they just use the google popularity of "[name] programing", it's not a mesure of anything. C jobs are very rare, and it's certainly not 14% of the programming jobs. Putting Java and C on the exact same level is a good sign something is wrong with what they are doing.
      - Tomte 8y ago
        C jobs are certainly much more than 14%. Believe it or not. Most software developers don‘t hang out in internet forums, commit to GitHub or write blog posts about JavaScript frameworks. They just do their day job and go home to their family.
      - kickopotomus 8y ago
        C jobs are not rare at all. I think you are failing to consider large chunks of the tech sector that operate outside of the web.
        realusername 8y ago
        > that operate outside of the web. Outside of the web, mobile, desktop apps and even gaming (mostly C++) you mean? C is used mainly in low level computing and embed nowadays.
        kickopotomus 8y ago
        Yes. That is correct. I fail to see your point since that is a large chunk of tech.
  - Tomte 8y ago
    That‘s because you‘re only thinking of desktop applications, mobile applications and web stuff. Embedded software is a vast market, and it‘s mostly C with a rising share of C++.
    - realusername 8y ago
      > Embedded software is a vast market Is it really? IoT still isn't taking off much and the more powerful the machines are getting (so every year), the less people are going to use C for that only tiny segment people are still using it for. Where I've used C on a microcontroller 10 years ago, you would likely use a cheap Android board nowadays.
      - Tomte 8y ago
        Are you kidding me? Look around your home. Right now. How many things have software in them? How many things don‘t you see in your home? Everything in your home that doesn‘t include software has been manufactured and packaged. My employer makes components for industrial automation. Have you ever thought about it? Nobody does, unless he has direct contact. Building automation? Special machinery (huge presses or packaging machines). Whatever. And re: your Android board: come back when your bricolage conforms to all kinds of requirements. Extended temperature range. Vibration. Electromagnetic compatibility (it‘s easy to accidentally broadcast in the naval emergency band). Etc. etc.
        realusername 8y ago
        > Look around your home. Right now. How many things have software in them? Not much as much as you think, apart from the routers, computers and phone, the only other thing I can think of is the dishwasher because it's half-recent. And I suspect the new ones just include a cheap Android board. > And re: your Android board: come back when your bricolage conforms to all kinds of requirements. Extended temperature range. Vibration. Electromagnetic compatibility (it‘s easy to accidentally broadcast in the naval emergency band). Etc. etc. I've worked on a company which manufactured their own card, that is much harder to do by yourself than buying a board which has been produced at millions of units where they solved all those issues directly. You can't compete with that easily. We had at least 5 iterations to solve the magnetic and heat issues, all of that comes for free in a mass-produced board.

pjmlp 8y ago

Yeah, dying on SV startups maybe, that end up rewriting on Java if they ever manage to go big.

pka 8y ago

Re macros, I had a similar thought this morning. Except for code instrumentation and boilerplate generation I've actually never found macros to be useful. ADT DSLs + free monads or similar abstractions give you everything you need, in a more principled way.