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You seem right. Every metric I can check says it is going downhill. Too bad, I used to go to the Clojure meetups in my area, I even had a talk about Clojure + E

by edem 8y ago

You seem right. Every metric I can check says it is going downhill. Too bad, I used to go to the Clojure meetups in my area, I even had a talk about Clojure + Emacs.

joncampbelldev 8y ago
Can you list some of these metrics?
- cutler 8y ago
  See my comment above re the Indeed.com API.
xixixao 8y ago
Many reasons. S-expressions would be the least of my worries. Java is dying, not on the whole, but certainly in mindset of people who are picking new languages. It’s integration with OSs, which Clojure depends on, is arcane by today standards. Second, it’s tightly controlled by one person, and they happen to hate types. Similar to CoffeeScript, couple years after the language inception people figure out that they miss types. Adding them back in is super tough. And third, abstractions have costs. There is no wide-spread popular LISP, and people should really ask themselves why. We have lots of code generation, and depend on it more and more. But it’s “simple” (or “primitive”). It’s usually one step. You can read the input, and you can read the output. I’m starting to get a sense that macros are like currying. Elegant, beautiful, powerful. But net negative if your concern is to get lots of people to create software together.
- realusername 8y ago
  > Java is dying, not on the whole, but certainly in mindset of people who are picking new languages Even as a whole it's slowing down heavily now, even Android is switching to Kotlin. The language is already not that trendy but Oracle's aggressive lawsuits is making it even worse.
  - knightofmars 8y ago
    Nope. https://www.tiobe.com/tiobe-index/ https://www.tiobe.com/tiobe-index/
    - realusername 8y ago
      I did not say that it's still not used heavily, just that it's slowing down. And C is the second on that list so I'm not sure I would believe this ranking, I have not seen much C jobs for a while now.
      - knightofmars 8y ago
        "I have not seen much C jobs for a while now." Because your anecdotal evidence is more accurate than what this list (which describes its methodology) is showing you?
        realusername 8y ago
        Yeah it is, because their methodology is shitty: https://www.tiobe.com/tiobe-index/programming-languages-definition/ https://www.tiobe.com/tiobe-index/programming-languages-defi..., they just use the google popularity of "[name] programing", it's not a mesure of anything. C jobs are very rare, and it's certainly not 14% of the programming jobs. Putting Java and C on the exact same level is a good sign something is wrong with what they are doing.
        Tomte 8y ago
        C jobs are certainly much more than 14%. Believe it or not. Most software developers don‘t hang out in internet forums, commit to GitHub or write blog posts about JavaScript frameworks. They just do their day job and go home to their family.
        kickopotomus 8y ago
        C jobs are not rare at all. I think you are failing to consider large chunks of the tech sector that operate outside of the web.
- pjmlp 8y ago
  Yeah, dying on SV startups maybe, that end up rewriting on Java if they ever manage to go big.
- pka 8y ago
  Re macros, I had a similar thought this morning. Except for code instrumentation and boilerplate generation I've actually never found macros to be useful. ADT DSLs + free monads or similar abstractions give you everything you need, in a more principled way.
nordsieck 8y ago
> Every metric I can check says it is going downhill. I've seen a fair number of metrics that show it's losing market share on a proportional basis, but holding steady on an absolute basis. Have you seen anything to contradict this?
- edem 8y ago
  What do you mean by absolute metric?
  - nordsieck 8y ago
    A metric based on raw participation numbers rather than one that is inherently relative to other languages. E.g. the number of commits on Github vs percent of total commits on Github.
- wool_gather 8y ago
  Shouldn't the proportion be your concern (assuming you actually have a horse in the race)? Steady absolute numbers basically indicates that nobody new is choosing it, which is just the first step to a decline of those absolute numbers.

by edem 8y ago

You seem right. Every metric I can check says it is going downhill. Too bad, I used to go to the Clojure meetups in my area, I even had a talk about Clojure + Emacs.

joncampbelldev 8y ago

Can you list some of these metrics?

cutler 8y ago
See my comment above re the Indeed.com API.

xixixao 8y ago

Many reasons. S-expressions would be the least of my worries. Java is dying, not on the whole, but certainly in mindset of people who are picking new languages. It’s integration with OSs, which Clojure depends on, is arcane by today standards. Second, it’s tightly controlled by one person, and they happen to hate types. Similar to CoffeeScript, couple years after the language inception people figure out that they miss types. Adding them back in is super tough. And third, abstractions have costs. There is no wide-spread popular LISP, and people should really ask themselves why. We have lots of code generation, and depend on it more and more. But it’s “simple” (or “primitive”). It’s usually one step. You can read the input, and you can read the output. I’m starting to get a sense that macros are like currying. Elegant, beautiful, powerful. But net negative if your concern is to get lots of people to create software together.

realusername 8y ago
> Java is dying, not on the whole, but certainly in mindset of people who are picking new languages Even as a whole it's slowing down heavily now, even Android is switching to Kotlin. The language is already not that trendy but Oracle's aggressive lawsuits is making it even worse.
- knightofmars 8y ago
  Nope. https://www.tiobe.com/tiobe-index/ https://www.tiobe.com/tiobe-index/
  - realusername 8y ago
    I did not say that it's still not used heavily, just that it's slowing down. And C is the second on that list so I'm not sure I would believe this ranking, I have not seen much C jobs for a while now.
    - knightofmars 8y ago
      "I have not seen much C jobs for a while now." Because your anecdotal evidence is more accurate than what this list (which describes its methodology) is showing you?
      - realusername 8y ago
        Yeah it is, because their methodology is shitty: https://www.tiobe.com/tiobe-index/programming-languages-definition/ https://www.tiobe.com/tiobe-index/programming-languages-defi..., they just use the google popularity of "[name] programing", it's not a mesure of anything. C jobs are very rare, and it's certainly not 14% of the programming jobs. Putting Java and C on the exact same level is a good sign something is wrong with what they are doing.
        Tomte 8y ago
        C jobs are certainly much more than 14%. Believe it or not. Most software developers don‘t hang out in internet forums, commit to GitHub or write blog posts about JavaScript frameworks. They just do their day job and go home to their family.
        kickopotomus 8y ago
        C jobs are not rare at all. I think you are failing to consider large chunks of the tech sector that operate outside of the web.
pjmlp 8y ago
Yeah, dying on SV startups maybe, that end up rewriting on Java if they ever manage to go big.
pka 8y ago
Re macros, I had a similar thought this morning. Except for code instrumentation and boilerplate generation I've actually never found macros to be useful. ADT DSLs + free monads or similar abstractions give you everything you need, in a more principled way.

nordsieck 8y ago

> Every metric I can check says it is going downhill. I've seen a fair number of metrics that show it's losing market share on a proportional basis, but holding steady on an absolute basis. Have you seen anything to contradict this?

edem 8y ago
What do you mean by absolute metric?
- nordsieck 8y ago
  A metric based on raw participation numbers rather than one that is inherently relative to other languages. E.g. the number of commits on Github vs percent of total commits on Github.
wool_gather 8y ago
Shouldn't the proportion be your concern (assuming you actually have a horse in the race)? Steady absolute numbers basically indicates that nobody new is choosing it, which is just the first step to a decline of those absolute numbers.