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I have not understood most of it (economics is not my strength and I've got a cold or a flu that gives me a headache) so I'll have to ask. Could the divergence

I have not understood most of it (economics is not my strength and I've got a cold or a flu that gives me a headache) so I'll have to ask. Could the divergence (or some of it) be explained by the off the books economy that is quite strong here in Spain? There's plenty of stories of people being "unemployed" but having a job, and employed people with other ways to increase their capital (off-the-books renting, hidden side-jobs, non-declared extra hours,...). Thanks.

bobds 16y ago
The off-the-books economy of Spain, Italy and Greece is amazingly large in both the private and goverment sectors. Your really have to live there to appreciate its size.
- gaius 16y ago
  And Ireland, and Portugal... Spot the pattern?
  - bobds 16y ago
    What's the pattern?
    - borism 16y ago
      Yeah, what's the pattern? Never heard that Ireland had a large grey economy, yet it seems to me to be the most troubled of the bunch.
      - gaius 16y ago
        Not so much in Dublin perhaps, but rural Ireland is all about favours and bartering, it's not even really a "black market" since cash isn't the currency. I dunno, it's cool, it makes it feel much more like a connected community, but you can't trade mackerel for fenceposts (this is a real deal in which I was involved) in the global economy without going via actual cash...
        anonymousDan 16y ago
        From what I've read about Greece, Ireland's problems are completely different. Nothing to do with a black market, more to do with an incompetent government that let property prices get out of control.
    - pchristensen 16y ago
      PIIGS - the countries whose economies boomed and now are crashing so hard they're threatening to bring down the EU.
      - paulobsf 16y ago
        As a Portuguese citizen I consider that acronym as offensive. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PIGS_(economics)#Controversy http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PIGS_(economics)#Controversy I think that we all agree that generalizations are the sign of narrow-minded individuals...
        pchristensen 16y ago
        No offense intended - I'm an American citizen so I don't have tons of room to talk! PIGS is an acronym - it just makes it easy to remember. That's the only reason I can name all 5 countries. No one things that citizens of those 5 countries are swine, just like they don't think that citizens of the booming BRIC countries (Brazil, Russia, India, China) are dumb.
- RickHull 16y ago
  It seems to me that economies, like information, want to be free. Or that like the internet, they route around damage.
  - bobds 16y ago
    That's a nice way to put it. Unfortunately, I don't think this is the way to a more free market.
    - higher 16y ago
      Agorism is a political philosophy dedicated to the idea that free markets (and a more free society) can arise out of a trend toward disregarding governments in commercial matters. It comes with all the typical and commonly rejected anarchist ideas like "any state is inherently unjust and arbitrary," but isn't altogether unreasonable.
- kiba 16y ago
  I thought that the economy of Spain and Greece can't collapse without ravaging its unofficial economy.

bobds 16y ago

The off-the-books economy of Spain, Italy and Greece is amazingly large in both the private and goverment sectors. Your really have to live there to appreciate its size.

gaius 16y ago
And Ireland, and Portugal... Spot the pattern?
- bobds 16y ago
  What's the pattern?
  - borism 16y ago
    Yeah, what's the pattern? Never heard that Ireland had a large grey economy, yet it seems to me to be the most troubled of the bunch.
    - gaius 16y ago
      Not so much in Dublin perhaps, but rural Ireland is all about favours and bartering, it's not even really a "black market" since cash isn't the currency. I dunno, it's cool, it makes it feel much more like a connected community, but you can't trade mackerel for fenceposts (this is a real deal in which I was involved) in the global economy without going via actual cash...
      - anonymousDan 16y ago
        From what I've read about Greece, Ireland's problems are completely different. Nothing to do with a black market, more to do with an incompetent government that let property prices get out of control.
  - pchristensen 16y ago
    PIIGS - the countries whose economies boomed and now are crashing so hard they're threatening to bring down the EU.
    - paulobsf 16y ago
      As a Portuguese citizen I consider that acronym as offensive. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PIGS_(economics)#Controversy http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PIGS_(economics)#Controversy I think that we all agree that generalizations are the sign of narrow-minded individuals...
      - pchristensen 16y ago
        No offense intended - I'm an American citizen so I don't have tons of room to talk! PIGS is an acronym - it just makes it easy to remember. That's the only reason I can name all 5 countries. No one things that citizens of those 5 countries are swine, just like they don't think that citizens of the booming BRIC countries (Brazil, Russia, India, China) are dumb.
RickHull 16y ago
It seems to me that economies, like information, want to be free. Or that like the internet, they route around damage.
- bobds 16y ago
  That's a nice way to put it. Unfortunately, I don't think this is the way to a more free market.
  - higher 16y ago
    Agorism is a political philosophy dedicated to the idea that free markets (and a more free society) can arise out of a trend toward disregarding governments in commercial matters. It comes with all the typical and commonly rejected anarchist ideas like "any state is inherently unjust and arbitrary," but isn't altogether unreasonable.
kiba 16y ago
I thought that the economy of Spain and Greece can't collapse without ravaging its unofficial economy.