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> Timsort is a sorting algorithm that is efficient for real-world data and not created in an academic laboratory. It's always a bit sad to see academia as an i

by Cynddl 8y ago

> Timsort is a sorting algorithm that is efficient for real-world data and not created in an academic laboratory. It's always a bit sad to see academia as an ivory tower where researchers generate unusable knowledge. Academia is not only about finding theoretical pure solutions but often also about finding solutions to real-world problems. For instance, machine learning, logic design, networking algorithms, cryptography, all deeply depend on work done in academia (and not just “theoretical” work).

tomnipotent 8y ago
> machine learning, logic design, networking algorithms, cryptography, all deeply depend on work done in academia (and not just “theoretical” work) All highly theoretical fields long before we found concrete applications. It often took one or more people an entire lifetime to convince others than these were valuable subjects to pursue. > Academia is not only about finding theoretical No, but it has to start there. Theoretical science is how we find new things to turn into applied science. It required 45+ years between the time Heinrich Hertz introduced contact mechanics and RADAR was put into use, 33 years from when Einstein published mass–energy equivalence (E=mc2) and Otto Hahn cracked nuclear fission but only a few more years until Robert Oppenheimer and the Manhattan project turned that into the first atom bomb.
- rs86 8y ago
  Let's add all the work on finding decision procedures for all of mathematics to that list
- barrkel 8y ago
  No, but it has to start there. That's simply not true. There's a loop: sometimes, industry comes up with a specific innovation, and academia generalized it; other times, academia comes up with an idea, and it's implemented in industry (often a commercialisation effort by the inventors). And sometimes academics are employed by industry and there's a hybrid. There's no one true way.
dfbrown 8y ago
In addition, in Tim's post on the python mailing list he says he developed the algorithm after reading through a number of papers on sorting[1]. So while the algorithm was developed with the goal of being practical, plenty of academic research was used to develop it. [1]: https://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-dev/2002-July/026837.html https://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-dev/2002-July/02683...
- ajbonkoski 8y ago
  Reading the mailing list end-to-end actually shows how much research Tim did before designing it. To suggest that the "academics" had no clue is extremely disingenuous. Worse, it misleads the next generation of great would-be algorithm designers into thinking that studying the research is foolish. Study of both the theoretical and the practical are hugely important; ignore either at your peril.
  - nas 8y ago
    I believe Tim Peters was trained as a mathematician. He is good at analyzing algorithms. Often he will post on the Python lists about the subtleties of floating point behavior. As you say, he read a much of recent research on sorting before coming up with TimSort. He special ability I think is making the "engineering" tradeoffs to come up with an algorithm that works well on real-world data.
    - ajbonkoski 8y ago
      You believe or you know? Nothing I've read suggests that. Please don't advance ideas like that without giving proper justification; this is exactly how myths start.
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
eesmith 8y ago
FWIW, mergesort (von Neumann, 1940s, Manhattan Project), Shell sort (Shell, General Electric Company, 1959), and quicksort (Hoare, Elliott brothers Ltd, 1961) were not created in an academic laboratory.
- ppseafield 8y ago
  OK, but the OP's point was that academia is not simply some free-floating institution avoiding usefulness. Because some sorting algorithms were developed outside of a university doesn't contradict that. Also both von Neumann and Hoare worked as professors. Von Neumann was a polymath and published plenty of academic papers. Hoare is still a professor. Are you implying that their work in academia had no value in developing those algorithms?
  - eesmith 8y ago
    I think the comment in the essay was a gratuitous and needless dismissal of academic research. All modern improvements to sorting, including TimSort, have been influenced by academic research. I think the most commonly used sorting algorithm were made in the first days of computing, before CS was even established as a field, making the point irrelevant. People don't care to even know what algorithm they are using. How many know when they are using introsort, even when that was developed by an academic. I think your objection points out the needless specificity of the original claim. "Created in an academic laboratory" requires that the person be in an academic lab, thus excluding (say) academics who are on sabbatical at (say) a national lab. Since there were few academic laboratories in the first few decades of computers, it's rather pointless. While Hoare did go on to become a professor, if Tim Peters were to get a professorship, would that make a difference?

by Cynddl 8y ago

tomnipotent 8y ago

> machine learning, logic design, networking algorithms, cryptography, all deeply depend on work done in academia (and not just “theoretical” work) All highly theoretical fields long before we found concrete applications. It often took one or more people an entire lifetime to convince others than these were valuable subjects to pursue. > Academia is not only about finding theoretical No, but it has to start there. Theoretical science is how we find new things to turn into applied science. It required 45+ years between the time Heinrich Hertz introduced contact mechanics and RADAR was put into use, 33 years from when Einstein published mass–energy equivalence (E=mc2) and Otto Hahn cracked nuclear fission but only a few more years until Robert Oppenheimer and the Manhattan project turned that into the first atom bomb.

rs86 8y ago
Let's add all the work on finding decision procedures for all of mathematics to that list
barrkel 8y ago
No, but it has to start there. That's simply not true. There's a loop: sometimes, industry comes up with a specific innovation, and academia generalized it; other times, academia comes up with an idea, and it's implemented in industry (often a commercialisation effort by the inventors). And sometimes academics are employed by industry and there's a hybrid. There's no one true way.

dfbrown 8y ago

In addition, in Tim's post on the python mailing list he says he developed the algorithm after reading through a number of papers on sorting[1]. So while the algorithm was developed with the goal of being practical, plenty of academic research was used to develop it. [1]: https://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-dev/2002-July/026837.html https://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-dev/2002-July/02683...

ajbonkoski 8y ago
Reading the mailing list end-to-end actually shows how much research Tim did before designing it. To suggest that the "academics" had no clue is extremely disingenuous. Worse, it misleads the next generation of great would-be algorithm designers into thinking that studying the research is foolish. Study of both the theoretical and the practical are hugely important; ignore either at your peril.
- nas 8y ago
  I believe Tim Peters was trained as a mathematician. He is good at analyzing algorithms. Often he will post on the Python lists about the subtleties of floating point behavior. As you say, he read a much of recent research on sorting before coming up with TimSort. He special ability I think is making the "engineering" tradeoffs to come up with an algorithm that works well on real-world data.
  - ajbonkoski 8y ago
    You believe or you know? Nothing I've read suggests that. Please don't advance ideas like that without giving proper justification; this is exactly how myths start.

deleted 8y ago

[deleted]

eesmith 8y ago

FWIW, mergesort (von Neumann, 1940s, Manhattan Project), Shell sort (Shell, General Electric Company, 1959), and quicksort (Hoare, Elliott brothers Ltd, 1961) were not created in an academic laboratory.

ppseafield 8y ago
OK, but the OP's point was that academia is not simply some free-floating institution avoiding usefulness. Because some sorting algorithms were developed outside of a university doesn't contradict that. Also both von Neumann and Hoare worked as professors. Von Neumann was a polymath and published plenty of academic papers. Hoare is still a professor. Are you implying that their work in academia had no value in developing those algorithms?
- eesmith 8y ago
  I think the comment in the essay was a gratuitous and needless dismissal of academic research. All modern improvements to sorting, including TimSort, have been influenced by academic research. I think the most commonly used sorting algorithm were made in the first days of computing, before CS was even established as a field, making the point irrelevant. People don't care to even know what algorithm they are using. How many know when they are using introsort, even when that was developed by an academic. I think your objection points out the needless specificity of the original claim. "Created in an academic laboratory" requires that the person be in an academic lab, thus excluding (say) academics who are on sabbatical at (say) a national lab. Since there were few academic laboratories in the first few decades of computers, it's rather pointless. While Hoare did go on to become a professor, if Tim Peters were to get a professorship, would that make a difference?