8 ms·

Taiwan’s Technology Secrets Come Under Assault from China

130 points by peter_retief 8y ago

weiming 8y ago
Taiwan may end up in a difficult spot in the coming decades unless they embrace production of distinctive (non-commoditized, like "iPhone" vs. "generic smartphone") consumer brands, or step up their efforts in software. Its current strengths are in the stuff that exists inside the products we use every day. Think semiconductors and other hardware components. However, that know-how is being commoditized rapidly. China is catching up. Japanese multinationals like Sony are also eyeing the same, gradually stepping away from competing on low-margin consumer products. For Taiwanese consumer electronics, you have brands like HTC, ASUS, Acer, or even a niche newcomer Gogoro (electric scooters). Sizeable, but not agile enough to take on players like Xiaomi. And the software scene is unfortunately not very bustling despite the government's repeated efforts to pour money into startup hubs and coworking spaces. This is what Taiwan's #1 online shopping portal looks like [1] [1] https://shopping.pchome.com.tw/ https://shopping.pchome.com.tw/ "Brain drain" to China and the US compounds some of these challenges. Very low salaries may be in part to blame here -- an engineer in Taiwan may make an equivalent of about $40k USD/year, while a home still costs as much as it does in Palo Alto.
- klodolph 8y ago
  Is China catching up? Last time I checked, TSMC was still a few nodes ahead of any Chinese fab.
- EliRivers 8y ago
  That just looks like a different aesthetic. Much like Korea and Japan[1]; they could make minimalist webpages in the Western style, but they choose not to. [1] https://randomwire.com/why-japanese-web-design-is-so-different/ https://randomwire.com/why-japanese-web-design-is-so-differe... and https://www.translatemedia.com/translation-blog/website-design-in-asia-vs-the-west/ https://www.translatemedia.com/translation-blog/website-desi... and http://digitalcommunications.wp.st-andrews.ac.uk/2016/03/03/why-is-eastern-asian-web-design-so-busy/ http://digitalcommunications.wp.st-andrews.ac.uk/2016/03/03/... and so on
  - weiming 8y ago
    It's not the high information density on the home page (common in Asia) but the overall web design style and functionality. The site was developed over a decade ago and has many interesting bits. For example, the "show me the product I ordered" page brings you to a captured JPG screenshot of the product listing. And product listing pages look something like this: https://24h.pchome.com.tw/prod/DSAM2L-A9007SS3R https://24h.pchome.com.tw/prod/DSAM2L-A9007SS3R Contrast/compare with these main players in China: http://www.jd.com/ http://www.jd.com/ http://tmall.com/ http://tmall.com/ http://taobao.com/ http://taobao.com/
  - ryanlol 8y ago
    Is this just a different aesthetic too http://live.pchome.com.tw/liver_form_predb.php?live_no=L17110073%27 http://live.pchome.com.tw/liver_form_predb.php?live_no=L1711...
- JoshMnem 8y ago
  > This is what Taiwan's #1 online shopping portal looks like I'm guessing that this opinion won't be popular here, but that is much better looking than things like Material Design. Except for the animated GIFs, I would prefer that shopping portal style without hesitation.
  - tanilama 8y ago
    Your preference doesn't mean it is not outdated.
    - JoshMnem 8y ago
      Good UIs don't need to change every few years.
worldsurfblue 8y ago
US, South Korea, Taiwan, Japan, and Europe really needs to form a coalition that would put pressure on Chinese government-sponsored companies blatant hacking attacks/stealing technologies, either by taking steps to reduce Chinese government investments in crucial technologies, punish Chinese firms like Huawei via sanctions, or put massive tariffs on China like US is doing. China is a very bad actor in the world. Some readings: How Chinese hacking felled telecommunication giant Nortel https://www.afr.com/technology/web/security/how-chinese-hacking-felled-telecommunication-giant-nortel-20140526-iux6a https://www.afr.com/technology/web/security/how-chinese-hack.... China-based hackers burrow inside satellite, defense, and telecoms firms https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2018/06/china-based-hackers-burrow-inside-satellite-defense-and-telecoms-firms/ https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2018/06/china...
- amsilprotag 8y ago
  If podcasts are more your speed, I'd recommend Bloomberg's Odd Lots with Dan Wang, which talks about China's 2025 plan. https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-05-21/this-is-china-s-plan-to-be-a-technology-powerhouse-by-the-year-2025 https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-05-21/this-is-c...
- Jerry2 8y ago
  We should start banning importation of products containing stolen technologies. And companies that use stolen technologies and their CEOs should be banned from Western markets.
  - foobarbazetc 8y ago
    Then Apple products are banned in China tomorrow and Apple loses half its value. Let’s see how that goes. ;)
    - deleted 8y ago
      [deleted]
    - freeloop10 8y ago
YorkshireSeason 8y ago
[1] is an interesting recent article, sketching the mainland's multi-pronged strategy for taking over Taiwan. [1] https://sentinel.tw/china-threatens-essence-taiwans-statehood/ https://sentinel.tw/china-threatens-essence-taiwans-statehoo...
- yborg 8y ago
  I've always felt that the obsession that the Chinese government has with Taiwan has a lot to do with the CCP still being butthurt over the escape of the Nationalists after the Chinese Civil War. They essentially never achieved complete victory over the Kuomintang. I wonder if the CCP were no longer governing China whether there would be such a focus on re-annexing Taiwan.
  - elefanten 8y ago
    That's a big part of it. Another big, enduring part is that Taiwan is living proof that Chinese culture and democracy mix perfectly well (something the CCP tries to deny) and a living body of culturally Chinese people who have experience with democratic governance. In other words, it's a big looming legitimacy boulder sitting above the CCP's head -- they fear every day that it will break off and fall.
    - fatman13gg 8y ago
      > Taiwan is living proof that Chinese culture and democracy mix perfectly well On the contrary, Taiwan is the proof that Chinese culture and democracy don't mix well. In fact that is why CNP lost in the first place and retreated to the island. China will always need a strong federal government to lead, or it would just break into smaller counties like EU.
      - YorkshireSeason 8y ago
        Wow, 50c party members trolls on HN (see [1])? Taiwan is the proof that Chinese culture and democracy don't mix well. Could you elaborate on this wild claim? While you do so, please bear in mind that pretty much every authoritarian ruler ever in human has justified itself by claiming that his subjects are not ready for, or not interested in democracy. Chiang Kai-shek rules Taiwan with an iron fist, and democratisation began for real only in the 1980s, including allowing free press, lifting bans on new political parties. Incidentally it was Chiang Ching-kuo, who was appointed by Chiang Kai-shek as premier, see [2] for more detail. Taiwanese citizens are certainly very happy with their blossoming democracy, and are a shining beacon that the mainland will hopefully eventually follow. break into smaller counties like EU. Why would it be a bad thing if China would split into smaller countries? Smaller countries are much less dangerous to their neighbours than big countries when they fail catastrophically (note that all countries fail catastrophically from time to time). BTW, The EU is composed of smaller countries, and a voluntary organisations. Maybe the mainland should charm Taiwan (and HK) into a voluntary union, rather than bully and terrorise? (In fairness, it must be said that both, Mainland China, and the states making up the EU, have a long and violent history of warring states.) [1] https://gking.harvard.edu/50C https://gking.harvard.edu/50C [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taiwan#Democratization https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taiwan#Democratization
amenod 8y ago
Behind paywall: https://archive.is/uLiop https://archive.is/uLiop
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
coliveira 8y ago
It needs to be reminded that, from China's perspective, Taiwan is their territory. Anything that is invested in Taiwan may (or will) eventually end up in Chinese hands. As China grows, they will require deals with Taiwanese companies that are similar to mainland deals.
tanilama 8y ago
Realistically, Taiwan can't stop it. The language barrier is zero, and the number of Taiwanese living in China is just off-the-charts. The truth they might have to ultimately face, is that China is too close to them and way bigger. There might be a way to keep balance in between within their means, but to think they can ignore/prevent Chinese influence is just fantasy.
known 8y ago
By acquiring ML/AI/Robotics IP China can export Ultra Low Cost/Superior Products.
powerapple 8y ago
So now Chinese company cannot approach employees in Taiwanese companies any more. Okay.

130 points by peter_retief 8y ago

Taiwan may end up in a difficult spot in the coming decades unless they embrace production of distinctive (non-commoditized, like "iPhone" vs. "generic smartphone") consumer brands, or step up their efforts in software. Its current strengths are in the stuff that exists inside the products we use every day. Think semiconductors and other hardware components. However, that know-how is being commoditized rapidly. China is catching up. Japanese multinationals like Sony are also eyeing the same, gradually stepping away from competing on low-margin consumer products. For Taiwanese consumer electronics, you have brands like HTC, ASUS, Acer, or even a niche newcomer Gogoro (electric scooters). Sizeable, but not agile enough to take on players like Xiaomi. And the software scene is unfortunately not very bustling despite the government's repeated efforts to pour money into startup hubs and coworking spaces. This is what Taiwan's #1 online shopping portal looks like [1] [1] https://shopping.pchome.com.tw/ https://shopping.pchome.com.tw/ "Brain drain" to China and the US compounds some of these challenges. Very low salaries may be in part to blame here -- an engineer in Taiwan may make an equivalent of about $40k USD/year, while a home still costs as much as it does in Palo Alto.

klodolph 8y ago
Is China catching up? Last time I checked, TSMC was still a few nodes ahead of any Chinese fab.
EliRivers 8y ago
That just looks like a different aesthetic. Much like Korea and Japan[1]; they could make minimalist webpages in the Western style, but they choose not to. [1] https://randomwire.com/why-japanese-web-design-is-so-different/ https://randomwire.com/why-japanese-web-design-is-so-differe... and https://www.translatemedia.com/translation-blog/website-design-in-asia-vs-the-west/ https://www.translatemedia.com/translation-blog/website-desi... and http://digitalcommunications.wp.st-andrews.ac.uk/2016/03/03/why-is-eastern-asian-web-design-so-busy/ http://digitalcommunications.wp.st-andrews.ac.uk/2016/03/03/... and so on
- weiming 8y ago
  It's not the high information density on the home page (common in Asia) but the overall web design style and functionality. The site was developed over a decade ago and has many interesting bits. For example, the "show me the product I ordered" page brings you to a captured JPG screenshot of the product listing. And product listing pages look something like this: https://24h.pchome.com.tw/prod/DSAM2L-A9007SS3R https://24h.pchome.com.tw/prod/DSAM2L-A9007SS3R Contrast/compare with these main players in China: http://www.jd.com/ http://www.jd.com/ http://tmall.com/ http://tmall.com/ http://taobao.com/ http://taobao.com/
- ryanlol 8y ago
  Is this just a different aesthetic too http://live.pchome.com.tw/liver_form_predb.php?live_no=L17110073%27 http://live.pchome.com.tw/liver_form_predb.php?live_no=L1711...
JoshMnem 8y ago
> This is what Taiwan's #1 online shopping portal looks like I'm guessing that this opinion won't be popular here, but that is much better looking than things like Material Design. Except for the animated GIFs, I would prefer that shopping portal style without hesitation.
- tanilama 8y ago
  Your preference doesn't mean it is not outdated.
  - JoshMnem 8y ago
    Good UIs don't need to change every few years.

worldsurfblue 8y ago

US, South Korea, Taiwan, Japan, and Europe really needs to form a coalition that would put pressure on Chinese government-sponsored companies blatant hacking attacks/stealing technologies, either by taking steps to reduce Chinese government investments in crucial technologies, punish Chinese firms like Huawei via sanctions, or put massive tariffs on China like US is doing. China is a very bad actor in the world. Some readings: How Chinese hacking felled telecommunication giant Nortel https://www.afr.com/technology/web/security/how-chinese-hacking-felled-telecommunication-giant-nortel-20140526-iux6a https://www.afr.com/technology/web/security/how-chinese-hack.... China-based hackers burrow inside satellite, defense, and telecoms firms https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2018/06/china-based-hackers-burrow-inside-satellite-defense-and-telecoms-firms/ https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2018/06/china...

amsilprotag 8y ago
If podcasts are more your speed, I'd recommend Bloomberg's Odd Lots with Dan Wang, which talks about China's 2025 plan. https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-05-21/this-is-china-s-plan-to-be-a-technology-powerhouse-by-the-year-2025 https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-05-21/this-is-c...
Jerry2 8y ago
We should start banning importation of products containing stolen technologies. And companies that use stolen technologies and their CEOs should be banned from Western markets.
- foobarbazetc 8y ago
  Then Apple products are banned in China tomorrow and Apple loses half its value. Let’s see how that goes. ;)
  - deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]
  - freeloop10 8y ago

YorkshireSeason 8y ago

[1] is an interesting recent article, sketching the mainland's multi-pronged strategy for taking over Taiwan. [1] https://sentinel.tw/china-threatens-essence-taiwans-statehood/ https://sentinel.tw/china-threatens-essence-taiwans-statehoo...

yborg 8y ago
I've always felt that the obsession that the Chinese government has with Taiwan has a lot to do with the CCP still being butthurt over the escape of the Nationalists after the Chinese Civil War. They essentially never achieved complete victory over the Kuomintang. I wonder if the CCP were no longer governing China whether there would be such a focus on re-annexing Taiwan.
- elefanten 8y ago
  That's a big part of it. Another big, enduring part is that Taiwan is living proof that Chinese culture and democracy mix perfectly well (something the CCP tries to deny) and a living body of culturally Chinese people who have experience with democratic governance. In other words, it's a big looming legitimacy boulder sitting above the CCP's head -- they fear every day that it will break off and fall.
  - fatman13gg 8y ago
    > Taiwan is living proof that Chinese culture and democracy mix perfectly well On the contrary, Taiwan is the proof that Chinese culture and democracy don't mix well. In fact that is why CNP lost in the first place and retreated to the island. China will always need a strong federal government to lead, or it would just break into smaller counties like EU.
    - YorkshireSeason 8y ago
      Wow, 50c party members trolls on HN (see [1])? Taiwan is the proof that Chinese culture and democracy don't mix well. Could you elaborate on this wild claim? While you do so, please bear in mind that pretty much every authoritarian ruler ever in human has justified itself by claiming that his subjects are not ready for, or not interested in democracy. Chiang Kai-shek rules Taiwan with an iron fist, and democratisation began for real only in the 1980s, including allowing free press, lifting bans on new political parties. Incidentally it was Chiang Ching-kuo, who was appointed by Chiang Kai-shek as premier, see [2] for more detail. Taiwanese citizens are certainly very happy with their blossoming democracy, and are a shining beacon that the mainland will hopefully eventually follow. break into smaller counties like EU. Why would it be a bad thing if China would split into smaller countries? Smaller countries are much less dangerous to their neighbours than big countries when they fail catastrophically (note that all countries fail catastrophically from time to time). BTW, The EU is composed of smaller countries, and a voluntary organisations. Maybe the mainland should charm Taiwan (and HK) into a voluntary union, rather than bully and terrorise? (In fairness, it must be said that both, Mainland China, and the states making up the EU, have a long and violent history of warring states.) [1] https://gking.harvard.edu/50C https://gking.harvard.edu/50C [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taiwan#Democratization https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taiwan#Democratization

amenod 8y ago

Behind paywall: https://archive.is/uLiop https://archive.is/uLiop

deleted 8y ago

[deleted]

coliveira 8y ago

It needs to be reminded that, from China's perspective, Taiwan is their territory. Anything that is invested in Taiwan may (or will) eventually end up in Chinese hands. As China grows, they will require deals with Taiwanese companies that are similar to mainland deals.

tanilama 8y ago

Realistically, Taiwan can't stop it. The language barrier is zero, and the number of Taiwanese living in China is just off-the-charts. The truth they might have to ultimately face, is that China is too close to them and way bigger. There might be a way to keep balance in between within their means, but to think they can ignore/prevent Chinese influence is just fantasy.

known 8y ago

By acquiring ML/AI/Robotics IP China can export Ultra Low Cost/Superior Products.

powerapple 8y ago

So now Chinese company cannot approach employees in Taiwanese companies any more. Okay.