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I've taken my fair share of drugs of all sorts, and maybe I'm just a grumpy bastard, but I've never felt like the author describes. I've never seen God or the a

I've taken my fair share of drugs of all sorts, and maybe I'm just a grumpy bastard, but I've never felt like the author describes. I've never seen God or the afterlife. I've always been fully aware than even deep into a trip or a roll or in the depths of a k hole, it's just the drugs that are making me weird. I'm all for taking recreational drugs to have fun and I'm all for "recreational drugs" used in a clinical setting, like ketamine for treating depression and addiction, LSD for addiction and end of life care, or MDMA for PTSD. But I don't think we'd see social benefits and an improved society from dosing everyone up on LSD and MDMA. I don't think that psychedelic experiences are profoundly religious or spiritual. I don't go around recommending that everyone takes a bunch of drugs. People will if they want to, but I'd never pressure someone into doing them. I'm not necessarily saying that the author falls into this camp, but I think that a lot of the time people try and make up medical or spiritual reasons for why they should legalise drugs, when they just want to take them recreationally. Just admit you want to take a bunch of drugs and get weird, there's nothing wrong with that! And one last thing: I'm not sure about shrooms, but pissing on LSD is a terrible experience. Every little detail of the toilet is magnified and in perfect clarity, and the toilet either feels like it's 6 inches away or 6 feet away.

oceanghost 8y ago
Some people have different experiences. I have never had a spiritual experience on psychedelics. But dissos? Quite a bit.
V-2 8y ago
This reminds me of the famous Leary vs. Lettvin debate (1967): https://youtu.be/Gq3Fp-xp0l0 https://youtu.be/Gq3Fp-xp0l0 For the brochure version: http://www.swt.org/oshare/Lettvin-Leary/Lettvin-Leary-LSD-Debate-Merged-OCR.pdf http://www.swt.org/oshare/Lettvin-Leary/Lettvin-Leary-LSD-De... Leary's sitting in the lotus position was always a red flag to me ;) I don't advocate a prohibition at all, but I think there's something wrong with attempting to conceive some sort of an ideology to back up the drug use. Lettvin's point - "but the problem is whether the navel really replaces TV" - still stands ;)
- toomanybeersies 8y ago
  Speaking of Leary, this quote from Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas [1] basically sums up my opinion and sentiment above: > All those pathetically eager acid freaks who thought they could buy Peace and Understanding for three bucks a hit. But their loss and failure is ours, too. What Leary took down with him was the central illusion of a whole life-style that he helped to create... > ...a generation of permanent cripples, failed seekers, who never understood the essential old mystic fallacy of the Acid Culture: the desperate assumption that somebody-or at least some force-is tending the Light at the end of the tunnel... > ... This is the same cruel and paradoxically benevolent bullshit has kept the Catholic Church going for so many centuries. I think that HST had the right idea. He was under no illusion that drugs were just a bunch of fun and that life was a carnival. Of course, the man killed himself at 67, so I don't know if he's a great role model. In fact, he's no better than Leary, he just went over the deep end of hedonism instead. [1] https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/453917-we-are-all-wired-into-a-survival-trip-now-no https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/453917-we-are-all-wired-int...
  - robotbikes 8y ago
    But LSD was also used heavily by people who went on to become the visionaries of the computer revolution that we are all utilizing to discuss this topic. Steve Jobs being one of the most notable but there were others documented in the book what the domouse said https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/725789.What_the_Dormouse_Said https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/725789.What_the_Dormouse...
  - deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]
- pmoriarty 8y ago
  "there's something wrong with attempting to conceive some sort of an ideology to back up the drug use" Could it be that there's something wrong with not having one? Most traditional societies with long histories of psychedelic use have some sort of ideology or framework in which to fit and to interpret the psychedelic experience. This is used to guide and structure the experience, and it could be argued that it's precisely when such a framework is lacking that all sorts of problems start to occur for many users of these substances -- they are thrown back on their own devices for interpretation of the experience, and many of them are incapable of doing so constructively. Our own society is really just in its infancy in trying to integrate psychedelic use in a constructive, helpful manner. Psychedelic use in a sacred context is one approch that some people are trying, psychedelic use in a medical or therapeutic context is another. The jury is still out on which of those is better. Maybe none of them is. Perhaps in the future we'll find an even better one.
pmoriarty 8y ago
"I've taken my fair share of drugs of all sorts, and maybe I'm just a grumpy bastard, but I've never felt like the author describes. I've never seen God or the afterlife. I've always been fully aware than even deep into a trip or a roll or in the depths of a k hole, it's just the drugs that are making me weird." Honestly, people are different and they react differently to drugs. I knew someone who did a lot of LSD, but he never had a single visual hallucination, while such hallucinations are incredibly common for just about everyone else who takes the drug. Also, I think set and setting and probably intelligence and life experience as well really affect what you get out of psychedelics. A die-hard materialist taking them in a clinical setting, expecting his experience to be "just noise in the brain" might be more likely to get something more superficial than someone who is deeply religious, who takes the psychedelic in a church or temple and who expects a spiritual communion with his or her deity. But, of course, you never know, and either of them might get the surprise of their lives. The other day I was listening to Erik Davis interview a researcher who'd administered psychedelics to thousands of subjects, and said that the people who have the hardest time with them are die-hard fundamentalists and die-hard materialists -- people who have something to prove.
- toomanybeersies 8y ago
  That's what I mean though. I'm not saying that nobody gets spiritual experiences, but rather that it's just a function of our brain. You aren't connecting to some higher power, you're connecting to your brain in a different state. Like having the radio tuned between two different channels. It can still be mind expanding, one thing I've definitely discovered from psychedelics is that our senses are subjective. But I think that people who are trying to find a higher meaning in life should look elsewhere, rather than drugs. Because you won't find a higher meaning, you'll just think you did, it's an illusion.
  - pmoriarty 8y ago
    "you won't find a higher meaning, you'll just think you did, it's an illusion" So how do you distinguish the illusion from the real thing, as far as higher meaning goes?

oceanghost 8y ago

Some people have different experiences. I have never had a spiritual experience on psychedelics. But dissos? Quite a bit.

V-2 8y ago

This reminds me of the famous Leary vs. Lettvin debate (1967): https://youtu.be/Gq3Fp-xp0l0 https://youtu.be/Gq3Fp-xp0l0 For the brochure version: http://www.swt.org/oshare/Lettvin-Leary/Lettvin-Leary-LSD-Debate-Merged-OCR.pdf http://www.swt.org/oshare/Lettvin-Leary/Lettvin-Leary-LSD-De... Leary's sitting in the lotus position was always a red flag to me ;) I don't advocate a prohibition at all, but I think there's something wrong with attempting to conceive some sort of an ideology to back up the drug use. Lettvin's point - "but the problem is whether the navel really replaces TV" - still stands ;)

toomanybeersies 8y ago
Speaking of Leary, this quote from Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas [1] basically sums up my opinion and sentiment above: > All those pathetically eager acid freaks who thought they could buy Peace and Understanding for three bucks a hit. But their loss and failure is ours, too. What Leary took down with him was the central illusion of a whole life-style that he helped to create... > ...a generation of permanent cripples, failed seekers, who never understood the essential old mystic fallacy of the Acid Culture: the desperate assumption that somebody-or at least some force-is tending the Light at the end of the tunnel... > ... This is the same cruel and paradoxically benevolent bullshit has kept the Catholic Church going for so many centuries. I think that HST had the right idea. He was under no illusion that drugs were just a bunch of fun and that life was a carnival. Of course, the man killed himself at 67, so I don't know if he's a great role model. In fact, he's no better than Leary, he just went over the deep end of hedonism instead. [1] https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/453917-we-are-all-wired-into-a-survival-trip-now-no https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/453917-we-are-all-wired-int...
- robotbikes 8y ago
  But LSD was also used heavily by people who went on to become the visionaries of the computer revolution that we are all utilizing to discuss this topic. Steve Jobs being one of the most notable but there were others documented in the book what the domouse said https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/725789.What_the_Dormouse_Said https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/725789.What_the_Dormouse...
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
pmoriarty 8y ago
"there's something wrong with attempting to conceive some sort of an ideology to back up the drug use" Could it be that there's something wrong with not having one? Most traditional societies with long histories of psychedelic use have some sort of ideology or framework in which to fit and to interpret the psychedelic experience. This is used to guide and structure the experience, and it could be argued that it's precisely when such a framework is lacking that all sorts of problems start to occur for many users of these substances -- they are thrown back on their own devices for interpretation of the experience, and many of them are incapable of doing so constructively. Our own society is really just in its infancy in trying to integrate psychedelic use in a constructive, helpful manner. Psychedelic use in a sacred context is one approch that some people are trying, psychedelic use in a medical or therapeutic context is another. The jury is still out on which of those is better. Maybe none of them is. Perhaps in the future we'll find an even better one.

pmoriarty 8y ago

"I've taken my fair share of drugs of all sorts, and maybe I'm just a grumpy bastard, but I've never felt like the author describes. I've never seen God or the afterlife. I've always been fully aware than even deep into a trip or a roll or in the depths of a k hole, it's just the drugs that are making me weird." Honestly, people are different and they react differently to drugs. I knew someone who did a lot of LSD, but he never had a single visual hallucination, while such hallucinations are incredibly common for just about everyone else who takes the drug. Also, I think set and setting and probably intelligence and life experience as well really affect what you get out of psychedelics. A die-hard materialist taking them in a clinical setting, expecting his experience to be "just noise in the brain" might be more likely to get something more superficial than someone who is deeply religious, who takes the psychedelic in a church or temple and who expects a spiritual communion with his or her deity. But, of course, you never know, and either of them might get the surprise of their lives. The other day I was listening to Erik Davis interview a researcher who'd administered psychedelics to thousands of subjects, and said that the people who have the hardest time with them are die-hard fundamentalists and die-hard materialists -- people who have something to prove.

toomanybeersies 8y ago
That's what I mean though. I'm not saying that nobody gets spiritual experiences, but rather that it's just a function of our brain. You aren't connecting to some higher power, you're connecting to your brain in a different state. Like having the radio tuned between two different channels. It can still be mind expanding, one thing I've definitely discovered from psychedelics is that our senses are subjective. But I think that people who are trying to find a higher meaning in life should look elsewhere, rather than drugs. Because you won't find a higher meaning, you'll just think you did, it's an illusion.
- pmoriarty 8y ago
  "you won't find a higher meaning, you'll just think you did, it's an illusion" So how do you distinguish the illusion from the real thing, as far as higher meaning goes?