8 ms·

Geeks, MOPs, and sociopaths in subculture evolution (2015)

99 points by bglusman 8y ago

fake-name 8y ago
The article title is "Geeks, MOPs, and sociopaths in subculture evolution". At minimum, the title should probably include the commas. ------ Also, the site appears to be being hugged to death.
- dang 8y ago
  Title fixed now.
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
dang 8y ago
Discussed in 2015: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9632751 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9632751.
wheremind 8y ago
This is the basic problem of all social organisations, not just 'subcultures', whatever they are. Any marginally successful group attracts sociopaths. The more power available to someone installing themselves at the centre of an elite clique that runs the organisation, the more attractive it is. No-one ever sees it fully until they get on the wrong end of one of these toxic power dynamics, there is so much subtle BS working against anyone trying to face this stuff down that it's almost pointless wasting your life trying. The only answer to the problem I've ever thought up is to burn it to the ground and start again, not very helpful but what else can you do? apart from walking away and leaving them to it. Also, this 'Geeks,fanatics etc.' narrative will be part of the arsenal deployed against anyone trying to expose a sociopath at the centre of one of these organisations. The levels of fuckery you come up against with this stuff are so unbelievably frustrating.
- majos 8y ago
  One answer is to be braver about calling out people you think are sociopaths (maybe not using that word). Presumably some non-mops are in the sweet spot of having enough social skills to do this but not so much that they find it uncomfortable. I get that doing this is difficult and draining, but if you're thinking about burning it down any way you may as well try this first, no?
  - s-shellfish 8y ago
    The only people that should be using the word sociopath to describe the behavior of others are people in the field of mental health care. Why diagnose people? Call them out on behavior that pisses you off, deal with it in an assertive manner. Calling a sociopath a sociopath in a non clinical context would only give them more power. A real sociopath doesn't care if you call them that. It just give the purported sociopath more information about the social environments expectations of their behavior. If they are in the social group, they are accepted, and if they are labeled a sociopath, as long as they continue to be accepted they will see their behavior as acceptable. If it's not confronted head on, one doesn't give 'the purported sociopath' the opportunity to prove either or.
    - knuththetruth 8y ago
      This is contextually determined. Unfortunately, in the horror of American Capitalism, there are ample settings in which being a sociopath is rewarded, but this is not universally true. Many sociopaths do in fact rely on blending into a benevolent, communally-oriented settings, dressing themselves in these values, in order to succeed at whatever game they’re trying to run, not the very least because many of these kinds of groups are easy to exploit and parasitize. But if the group themselves are firmly enough rooted in these benevolent values, exposing the sociopath can lead to their expulsion. I’ve seen this happen.
      - nyolfen 8y ago
        >Unfortunately, in the horror of American Capitalism, there are ample settings in which being a sociopath is rewarded, in another kind of culture these people would be warlords, party operatives or similar
stcredzero 8y ago
“All revolutions are conceived by idealists, implemented by fanatics, and its fruits are stolen by scoundrels.” -Thomas Carlyle Perhaps this should be adapted: Subcultures are conceived by geek idealists, run by geek fanatics, overrun by mops, and then stolen by sociopaths. I think there is an impedance mismatch between the market nature of the Internet as a whole, versus the centrally controlled nature of subsections of it. Let's say that your allegiance isn't to one particular scene, but you're in a scene, and it becomes overrun by sociopaths. Well, in that case, you can just choose a different scene. The "free market of ideas" has worked. That's good for mops, which is to say it's good for most consumers and most people. But what if you can't/won't leave a particular scene? That particular scene is probably of the size where a small number of online groups (perhaps 1) dominates 90% of the communications, power, and resources in that scene. In that case, there is no "free market of ideas." From that point of view, there is only a centralized totalitarianism to face. (You can see this embodied in miniature in Reddit. Want to discus media/stories? Reddit provides a whole lot of choices, then! Want to discuss superhero comics? You'd better hew to particular politics, and the mere asking questions about certain topics will get you perma-banned.) The organizing/media power of tools available to Geeks and Sociopaths both has increased to the point where sociopaths can control viable city/states/islands of culture. The available tools unwittingly fit and facilitate the centrally controlled authoritarian tendencies of sociopaths. Is there a technological/game-theoretic solution? In recent years, YouTube, Discord, and other online tools/sites have become a technological/game-theoretic solution. If a particular scene has been overrun by sociopaths, who then become drunk on power and start going too far, people have started to speak out against the authoritarianism on YouTube. Unfortunately, in recent years, this has led to the urging for and attempts at censorship on those platforms.
- mickronome 8y ago
  Game theoretical, I don't have a solution, but for the scoundrels they tend to have a different set of truths for everyone they talk to. I think it should be possible to use this to at least limit the space the scoundrels can act within, maybe even limit it enough that the actions they inevitably does take become a net positive. Would probably need a very tolerant user-base though, especially in the bug fixing phase!
- 8y ago
nautilus12 8y ago
Written by a mop that thinks hes a fanatic and that was likely exploited by a sociopath.
kbenson 8y ago
> The optimal mop:geek ratio is maybe 6:1. At that ratio, the mops provide more energy than they consume. A ratio above about 10:1 becomes unworkable; it’s a recipe for burnout among supporting fanatics. Obviously, the correct ratio is 7.56, from the evidence presented (that is, there is none). ;) A fun read, in the same way the Gervais principle is, but stay away from hard numbers. This is all hand-wavey pseudo-science, which doesn't really detract from the entertainment value at all, but once you start throwing out concrete numbers without any basis, the suspension of disbelief bubble will pop for some.
Uhhrrr 8y ago
Pretty much accurate. I think it's noteworthy that HN consciously discourages mops, by remaining text-only, slowing down hot-button discussions, downvoting injokes and the like. As compared to (specifically) Reddit. I'm very interested in hearing about other specific scenes which have survived, in the author's estimation.
tejtm 8y ago
Getting enough people in a group to read the late Pieter Hintjens' 'Psychopath Code'[0] helps cerate awareness and builds heard immunity. [0]https://legacy.gitbook.com/book/hintjens/psychopathcode/details https://legacy.gitbook.com/book/hintjens/psychopathcode/deta...
hardwaresofton 8y ago
This article might just explain why HN is not Reddit (yet?).
im3w1l 8y ago
This story fits bitcoin pretty much exactly
- Avamander 8y ago
  It kind-of also fits Linux, it's not that far gone, but it's moving towards that sociopath stage. Though, would it be wrong to bring social rights movements as examples too?
JoachimS 8y ago
Previous discussion from when the article was published: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9632751 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9632751
JoachimS 8y ago
The article makes a lot of hard claims, but contains very few examples to back them up. What are well known scenes, subcultures that have died like this?
jstewartmobile 8y ago
He went off the rails before he even got started: "One reason—among several—is that as soon as subcultures start getting really interesting, they get invaded by muggles, who ruin them." Many of these subcultures come into being when people working from an unusual set of values and perceptions find each other. We're all mainlining the same Netflix/Facebook/Twitter/etc now. How much harder must it be to end up that unusual in a global web-based monoculture? I guess we still have subcultures in some sense... it's just that they now have world-wide membership and the populations of small countries. That, and year 2000 was just around the time most westerners plugged into the matrix.
- krapp 8y ago
  "One reason—among several—is that as soon as subcultures start getting really interesting, they get invaded by muggles, who ruin them." Yes. Nothing is worse than when normal people ruin your quirky, exclusive niche thing by liking the same thing you like, contributing to it and making a part of mainstream culture. I'm going to go watch anime on the web and work on Unity projects now. Reeeeee.
  - jstewartmobile 8y ago
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Narcissism_of_small_differences https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Narcissism_of_small_difference...

99 points by bglusman 8y ago

The article title is "Geeks, MOPs, and sociopaths in subculture evolution". At minimum, the title should probably include the commas. ------ Also, the site appears to be being hugged to death.

dang 8y ago
Title fixed now.

deleted 8y ago

[deleted]

dang 8y ago

Discussed in 2015: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9632751 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9632751.

wheremind 8y ago

This is the basic problem of all social organisations, not just 'subcultures', whatever they are. Any marginally successful group attracts sociopaths. The more power available to someone installing themselves at the centre of an elite clique that runs the organisation, the more attractive it is. No-one ever sees it fully until they get on the wrong end of one of these toxic power dynamics, there is so much subtle BS working against anyone trying to face this stuff down that it's almost pointless wasting your life trying. The only answer to the problem I've ever thought up is to burn it to the ground and start again, not very helpful but what else can you do? apart from walking away and leaving them to it. Also, this 'Geeks,fanatics etc.' narrative will be part of the arsenal deployed against anyone trying to expose a sociopath at the centre of one of these organisations. The levels of fuckery you come up against with this stuff are so unbelievably frustrating.

majos 8y ago
One answer is to be braver about calling out people you think are sociopaths (maybe not using that word). Presumably some non-mops are in the sweet spot of having enough social skills to do this but not so much that they find it uncomfortable. I get that doing this is difficult and draining, but if you're thinking about burning it down any way you may as well try this first, no?
- s-shellfish 8y ago
  The only people that should be using the word sociopath to describe the behavior of others are people in the field of mental health care. Why diagnose people? Call them out on behavior that pisses you off, deal with it in an assertive manner. Calling a sociopath a sociopath in a non clinical context would only give them more power. A real sociopath doesn't care if you call them that. It just give the purported sociopath more information about the social environments expectations of their behavior. If they are in the social group, they are accepted, and if they are labeled a sociopath, as long as they continue to be accepted they will see their behavior as acceptable. If it's not confronted head on, one doesn't give 'the purported sociopath' the opportunity to prove either or.
  - knuththetruth 8y ago
    This is contextually determined. Unfortunately, in the horror of American Capitalism, there are ample settings in which being a sociopath is rewarded, but this is not universally true. Many sociopaths do in fact rely on blending into a benevolent, communally-oriented settings, dressing themselves in these values, in order to succeed at whatever game they’re trying to run, not the very least because many of these kinds of groups are easy to exploit and parasitize. But if the group themselves are firmly enough rooted in these benevolent values, exposing the sociopath can lead to their expulsion. I’ve seen this happen.
    - nyolfen 8y ago
      >Unfortunately, in the horror of American Capitalism, there are ample settings in which being a sociopath is rewarded, in another kind of culture these people would be warlords, party operatives or similar

stcredzero 8y ago

“All revolutions are conceived by idealists, implemented by fanatics, and its fruits are stolen by scoundrels.” -Thomas Carlyle Perhaps this should be adapted: Subcultures are conceived by geek idealists, run by geek fanatics, overrun by mops, and then stolen by sociopaths. I think there is an impedance mismatch between the market nature of the Internet as a whole, versus the centrally controlled nature of subsections of it. Let's say that your allegiance isn't to one particular scene, but you're in a scene, and it becomes overrun by sociopaths. Well, in that case, you can just choose a different scene. The "free market of ideas" has worked. That's good for mops, which is to say it's good for most consumers and most people. But what if you can't/won't leave a particular scene? That particular scene is probably of the size where a small number of online groups (perhaps 1) dominates 90% of the communications, power, and resources in that scene. In that case, there is no "free market of ideas." From that point of view, there is only a centralized totalitarianism to face. (You can see this embodied in miniature in Reddit. Want to discus media/stories? Reddit provides a whole lot of choices, then! Want to discuss superhero comics? You'd better hew to particular politics, and the mere asking questions about certain topics will get you perma-banned.) The organizing/media power of tools available to Geeks and Sociopaths both has increased to the point where sociopaths can control viable city/states/islands of culture. The available tools unwittingly fit and facilitate the centrally controlled authoritarian tendencies of sociopaths. Is there a technological/game-theoretic solution? In recent years, YouTube, Discord, and other online tools/sites have become a technological/game-theoretic solution. If a particular scene has been overrun by sociopaths, who then become drunk on power and start going too far, people have started to speak out against the authoritarianism on YouTube. Unfortunately, in recent years, this has led to the urging for and attempts at censorship on those platforms.

mickronome 8y ago
Game theoretical, I don't have a solution, but for the scoundrels they tend to have a different set of truths for everyone they talk to. I think it should be possible to use this to at least limit the space the scoundrels can act within, maybe even limit it enough that the actions they inevitably does take become a net positive. Would probably need a very tolerant user-base though, especially in the bug fixing phase!
8y ago

nautilus12 8y ago

Written by a mop that thinks hes a fanatic and that was likely exploited by a sociopath.

kbenson 8y ago

> The optimal mop:geek ratio is maybe 6:1. At that ratio, the mops provide more energy than they consume. A ratio above about 10:1 becomes unworkable; it’s a recipe for burnout among supporting fanatics. Obviously, the correct ratio is 7.56, from the evidence presented (that is, there is none). ;) A fun read, in the same way the Gervais principle is, but stay away from hard numbers. This is all hand-wavey pseudo-science, which doesn't really detract from the entertainment value at all, but once you start throwing out concrete numbers without any basis, the suspension of disbelief bubble will pop for some.

Uhhrrr 8y ago

Pretty much accurate. I think it's noteworthy that HN consciously discourages mops, by remaining text-only, slowing down hot-button discussions, downvoting injokes and the like. As compared to (specifically) Reddit. I'm very interested in hearing about other specific scenes which have survived, in the author's estimation.

tejtm 8y ago

Getting enough people in a group to read the late Pieter Hintjens' 'Psychopath Code'[0] helps cerate awareness and builds heard immunity. [0]https://legacy.gitbook.com/book/hintjens/psychopathcode/details https://legacy.gitbook.com/book/hintjens/psychopathcode/deta...

hardwaresofton 8y ago

This article might just explain why HN is not Reddit (yet?).

im3w1l 8y ago

This story fits bitcoin pretty much exactly

Avamander 8y ago
It kind-of also fits Linux, it's not that far gone, but it's moving towards that sociopath stage. Though, would it be wrong to bring social rights movements as examples too?

JoachimS 8y ago

Previous discussion from when the article was published: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9632751 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9632751

JoachimS 8y ago

The article makes a lot of hard claims, but contains very few examples to back them up. What are well known scenes, subcultures that have died like this?

jstewartmobile 8y ago

He went off the rails before he even got started: "One reason—among several—is that as soon as subcultures start getting really interesting, they get invaded by muggles, who ruin them." Many of these subcultures come into being when people working from an unusual set of values and perceptions find each other. We're all mainlining the same Netflix/Facebook/Twitter/etc now. How much harder must it be to end up that unusual in a global web-based monoculture? I guess we still have subcultures in some sense... it's just that they now have world-wide membership and the populations of small countries. That, and year 2000 was just around the time most westerners plugged into the matrix.

krapp 8y ago
"One reason—among several—is that as soon as subcultures start getting really interesting, they get invaded by muggles, who ruin them." Yes. Nothing is worse than when normal people ruin your quirky, exclusive niche thing by liking the same thing you like, contributing to it and making a part of mainstream culture. I'm going to go watch anime on the web and work on Unity projects now. Reeeeee.
- jstewartmobile 8y ago
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Narcissism_of_small_differences https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Narcissism_of_small_difference...