4 ms·

And yet I'm constantly told that European banks make it trivial to transfer money without middlemen like visa. So why not just submit payment that way?

dasil003 8y ago
It's only trivial within each country, not across borders.
- pas 8y ago
  No, it's pretty trivial for SEPA countries. https://www.ecb.europa.eu/paym/retpaym/paymint/sepa/html/index.en.html https://www.ecb.europa.eu/paym/retpaym/paymint/sepa/html/ind... Do you know of any problem? Instant clearing/settlement is in TARGET2 which is the ECB's vision for 2020.
  - iMerNibor 8y ago
    Stupid high fees from uk banks, for example (we're talking a flat ~15€ per transaction)
    - nissehulth 8y ago
      For SEPA transfers? Are you sure you're not mixing it up with SWIFT transfers?
    - def_true_false 8y ago
      Like with anything else, you just need to use a provider that doesn't suck.
- jacquesm 8y ago
  That was true up to 1/1/2018. Now the transfers take a couple of minutes in most cases. The frustrating thing is that it is now quicker for me to move money between say ABN-Amro in NL and some Polish or Romanian bank than it is to transfer between ABN-Amro in NL and a RABO or ING account in NL.
oldcynic 8y ago
They do. If I have someone's bank details I can transfer for free, instantly. (OK it sometimes takes a few minutes at weekends). There's two issues with ever using that for online payment: 1. There is no mechanism to obtain a refund for a mistake - eg I mistype the account number, someone else gets the money. Banks won't reverse but ask the payee to refund. If they still exist and are willing to cooperate. This is the route used for many, many scams like Microsoft calling because they noticed a fault with your Windows. 2. There is no protection under the Consumer Credit Act to obtain refund in the event the company goes bust or the product is defective and they won't refund. Credit cards have to provide that. I use it with friends in preference to any other method, especially Paypal though.
- Certhas 8y ago
  With SofortBanking and similar services it is becoming more common to use this to pay online. It eliminates much of the issues you mention.
  - Kliment 8y ago
    Sofort are problematic because they a) access your account via credentials that it's against bank ToS to share and b) they scrape and store (and likely sell) transaction data unrelated to the current transaction because they have access to your account.
- cpmouter 8y ago
  You can't "mistype the account number", as it has control digits. I mean, there's a possibility, but it's really slim.
  - oldcynic 8y ago
    Credit cards definitely have check digits, pretty sure bank accounts don't, though I'm not certain. Common enough that there's been a fair bit in the media[0] regularly, ever since instant transfers took off, and warnings from the Financial Ombudsman[1]. There's also been stories of people randomly discovering a few thousand appearing in their account and stupidly going out to spend it that day. [0] First link in results https://www.telegraph.co.uk/personal-banking/current-accounts/i-transferred-1700-into-the-wrong-account-and-i-cant-get-it-back/ https://www.telegraph.co.uk/personal-banking/current-account... [1] https://www.bbc.com/news/business-22815716 https://www.bbc.com/news/business-22815716
barrkel 8y ago
I did that a few times (buying bitcoin) and got my bank account suspended. I was told the other party was suspected of perpetrating fraud, and if I wanted to complete the transaction I'd need to do it in person in a branch. Getting your bank account suspended is much more painful than a credit card. As a result, I'm not very interested in executing transactions with random entities out of my bank account.
kuschku 8y ago
Because we already do, in some places – e.g. Amazon.de takes wire transfers, so does PayPal in Germany, and so do many/most German online shops. And even for offline payments, we have in Germany an entirely separate card system based on that. But you know, network effects and all. Internationally, it’s incredibly hard to buy anything online without a CC. So Germans who order lots online still often have a CC.
- majewsky 8y ago
  Also, getting a hotel reservation is much more painful without CC. Some hotels outright refuse to do a reservation without CC, others will charge a higher rate.

dasil003 8y ago

It's only trivial within each country, not across borders.

pas 8y ago
No, it's pretty trivial for SEPA countries. https://www.ecb.europa.eu/paym/retpaym/paymint/sepa/html/index.en.html https://www.ecb.europa.eu/paym/retpaym/paymint/sepa/html/ind... Do you know of any problem? Instant clearing/settlement is in TARGET2 which is the ECB's vision for 2020.
- iMerNibor 8y ago
  Stupid high fees from uk banks, for example (we're talking a flat ~15€ per transaction)
  - nissehulth 8y ago
    For SEPA transfers? Are you sure you're not mixing it up with SWIFT transfers?
  - def_true_false 8y ago
    Like with anything else, you just need to use a provider that doesn't suck.
jacquesm 8y ago
That was true up to 1/1/2018. Now the transfers take a couple of minutes in most cases. The frustrating thing is that it is now quicker for me to move money between say ABN-Amro in NL and some Polish or Romanian bank than it is to transfer between ABN-Amro in NL and a RABO or ING account in NL.

oldcynic 8y ago

They do. If I have someone's bank details I can transfer for free, instantly. (OK it sometimes takes a few minutes at weekends). There's two issues with ever using that for online payment: 1. There is no mechanism to obtain a refund for a mistake - eg I mistype the account number, someone else gets the money. Banks won't reverse but ask the payee to refund. If they still exist and are willing to cooperate. This is the route used for many, many scams like Microsoft calling because they noticed a fault with your Windows. 2. There is no protection under the Consumer Credit Act to obtain refund in the event the company goes bust or the product is defective and they won't refund. Credit cards have to provide that. I use it with friends in preference to any other method, especially Paypal though.

Certhas 8y ago
With SofortBanking and similar services it is becoming more common to use this to pay online. It eliminates much of the issues you mention.
- Kliment 8y ago
  Sofort are problematic because they a) access your account via credentials that it's against bank ToS to share and b) they scrape and store (and likely sell) transaction data unrelated to the current transaction because they have access to your account.
cpmouter 8y ago
You can't "mistype the account number", as it has control digits. I mean, there's a possibility, but it's really slim.
- oldcynic 8y ago
  Credit cards definitely have check digits, pretty sure bank accounts don't, though I'm not certain. Common enough that there's been a fair bit in the media[0] regularly, ever since instant transfers took off, and warnings from the Financial Ombudsman[1]. There's also been stories of people randomly discovering a few thousand appearing in their account and stupidly going out to spend it that day. [0] First link in results https://www.telegraph.co.uk/personal-banking/current-accounts/i-transferred-1700-into-the-wrong-account-and-i-cant-get-it-back/ https://www.telegraph.co.uk/personal-banking/current-account... [1] https://www.bbc.com/news/business-22815716 https://www.bbc.com/news/business-22815716

barrkel 8y ago

I did that a few times (buying bitcoin) and got my bank account suspended. I was told the other party was suspected of perpetrating fraud, and if I wanted to complete the transaction I'd need to do it in person in a branch. Getting your bank account suspended is much more painful than a credit card. As a result, I'm not very interested in executing transactions with random entities out of my bank account.

kuschku 8y ago

Because we already do, in some places – e.g. Amazon.de takes wire transfers, so does PayPal in Germany, and so do many/most German online shops. And even for offline payments, we have in Germany an entirely separate card system based on that. But you know, network effects and all. Internationally, it’s incredibly hard to buy anything online without a CC. So Germans who order lots online still often have a CC.

majewsky 8y ago
Also, getting a hotel reservation is much more painful without CC. Some hotels outright refuse to do a reservation without CC, others will charge a higher rate.