7 ms·

This kind of outcry happens again and again, but nothing ever happens, because it's a niche problem. Some time ago it was fetlife: https://www.eff.org/deeplink

by eurg 8y ago

This kind of outcry happens again and again, but nothing ever happens, because it's a niche problem. Some time ago it was fetlife: https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2017/03/payment-processors-are-still-policing-your-sex-life https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2017/03/payment-processors-are... And maybe of interest: When the EU brought out GDPR, so many people complained about the injustice of one group of governments bringing their laws to the world. For the rest of the world, this is nothing new: The dominance of the US finance sector means that any US law is automatically international law. Visa follows US laws, nobody can exist without taking Visa payments, so everybody follows Visa rules, which means you follow US rules. In the end, what is allowed is the intersection of behavior that's not penalized in any state of the world.

bb88 8y ago
> ... what is allowed is the intersection of behavior that's not penalized in any state of the world. In a weird way, I think China does this right. Winnie the Pooh is no longer allowed in China [1]. So they turn it off at the firewall. This is better than say, trying to force all the other companies in the world to comply with some stupid law that China makes up. While I disagree with China on their use of the firewall to block speech, it's a far better way to do it than to sue Disney to prevent Winnie the Pooh products from coming over into China. [1] https://www.bbc.com/news/blogs-china-blog-40627855 https://www.bbc.com/news/blogs-china-blog-40627855
- repsilat 8y ago
  Look at what China is doing to airlines -- "Say Taiwan is a part of China or we won't let you operate here." They have essentially the same policy as everyone else -- we'll force you to follow our laws, and if we can't we'll shut you out. Blocking the Winnie the Pooh content is no different. If China made up a large part of the audience of those sites, they would "have to" change. Ditto GDPR -- you can just ignore it and block Europe if you want, they're not forcing you to do anything.
  - bb88 8y ago
    Edited to Add: The last time I checked, the US believes that Taiwan is part of China. [1] China has the stupid laws here. Instead of forcing them onto the rest of the world, they prevent the content from coming into their state. Likewise GDPR is a "stupid" law, so it's the EU's job to prevent non GDPR sites from coming into Europe, and not Facebook's responsiblity for complying with a stupid law. https://www.state.gov/r/pa/ei/bgn/35855.htm https://www.state.gov/r/pa/ei/bgn/35855.htm
    - jakelazaroff 8y ago
      > it's the EU's job to prevent non GDPR sites from coming into Europe, and not Facebook's responsiblity for complying with a stupid law. As the grandparent said, it's not e.g. Facebook's responsibility to comply with the GDPR unless they want to do business in the EU.
      - throwaway11222 8y ago
        To be fair, this article says otherwise: https://www.forbes.com/sites/forbestechcouncil/2017/12/04/yes-the-gdpr-will-affect-your-u-s-based-business/#19ee758f6ff2 https://www.forbes.com/sites/forbestechcouncil/2017/12/04/ye...
        guitarbill 8y ago
        That article doesn't really say that: > The organization would have to target a data subject in an EU country. Generic marketing doesn’t count. [...] However, any U.S. company that has identified a market in an EU country and has localized Web content should review their Web operations. (It's actually a decent article that captures the nuances of GDPR well.)
- Rapzid 8y ago
  Until they can't and become bullies like with Taiwan. I'm actually pretty appalled how easily people point to one or two benefits to the way China handles something while completely ignoring the concessions as evidence of them "doing it right". Never mind these short term benefits are coming at the cost of policies that are an affront to liberty and the modern concept of democracy. So, I'm going to offer a counter opinion; I do not believe China does this "right". Dumb lawsuits are dumb, but I'm not willing to throw the baby out with the bath water.
zeth___ 8y ago
>In the end, what is allowed is the intersection of behavior that's not penalized in any state of the world. That is hardly true. We do not follow the rules of Saudi Arabia and Iran. What happens is that the laws of the US and the intersection of local laws are what needs to be followed. The US is aghast that the EU is a large enough market to actually impact the rules of the global internet, and the laws are different enough that they will hurt the major US players. Now all of a sudden people are seeing why applying national laws to pure cyberspace is a bad idea. I'm moving into using tor because it feels more like the internet I knew from 1998-2006, slow-ish, unreliable, unpolished, anonymous, ephemeral and private, with all the warts there to see. In short a new network that takes A Declaration of the Independence of Cyberspace seriously.
tedunangst 8y ago
And yet I'm constantly told that European banks make it trivial to transfer money without middlemen like visa. So why not just submit payment that way?
- dasil003 8y ago
  It's only trivial within each country, not across borders.
  - pas 8y ago
    No, it's pretty trivial for SEPA countries. https://www.ecb.europa.eu/paym/retpaym/paymint/sepa/html/index.en.html https://www.ecb.europa.eu/paym/retpaym/paymint/sepa/html/ind... Do you know of any problem? Instant clearing/settlement is in TARGET2 which is the ECB's vision for 2020.
    - iMerNibor 8y ago
      Stupid high fees from uk banks, for example (we're talking a flat ~15€ per transaction)
      - nissehulth 8y ago
        For SEPA transfers? Are you sure you're not mixing it up with SWIFT transfers?
      - def_true_false 8y ago
        Like with anything else, you just need to use a provider that doesn't suck.
  - jacquesm 8y ago
    That was true up to 1/1/2018. Now the transfers take a couple of minutes in most cases. The frustrating thing is that it is now quicker for me to move money between say ABN-Amro in NL and some Polish or Romanian bank than it is to transfer between ABN-Amro in NL and a RABO or ING account in NL.
randaouser 8y ago
check out spankchain: https://spankchain.com/ https://spankchain.com/ -high speed -prevents this nonsense
- Drdrdrq 8y ago
  Payment for adult content is where Ethereum and similar cryptocurrencies would solve a real problem. Of course tokens (like SpankChain) are not really needed for a solution, one could use ETH directly. The anonymity of transactions could be problematic though...
  - jMyles 8y ago
    SpankChain is a very sensible layer on top of Ethereum, allowing workers to bring their reputation and fanbase with them across services and avoid lock-in. This is exactly the kind of thing that makes sense to build on top of Ethereum.
    - Drdrdrq 8y ago
      I wish them luck and hope they solve payment processing problems for adult performers once and for all. That said, the only point of a separate token I see is getting them money so they can actually implement the system. From end users' point of view it would be easier if ETH was used directly imho.
      - jMyles 8y ago
        Well, if the client is the "end user", then sure. But consider the benefits that the worker gets.
technion 8y ago
Fetlife is also the canonical demonstration that cryptocurrencies don't solve these problems. They tried accepting BTC. Noone used it, even while they were struggling with Visa. They pulled the support citing lack of use.
- wishinghand 8y ago
  Don't they only accept actual money now, via ACH or debit card payments?
- gizmo686 8y ago
  This isn't true anymore. I just logged on to check, and they support payment by: * Bitcoin * Bank Transfer (from select countries [0]) * Major brand gift cards * Checks/Cash through the mail * Prepaid Paysafecard * Przlewy24 (Something available to people with a bank account in Poland) * Interac e-Transfer (Something available to people with a bank account in Canada) [0] US, European (with a SEPA supporting bank), Australia, New Zealand, Dutch (with iDEAL supporting bank), Austria (with EPS supporting bank), Germany (with giropay supporting bank) No idea about the usage though.

by eurg 8y ago

bb88 8y ago

> ... what is allowed is the intersection of behavior that's not penalized in any state of the world. In a weird way, I think China does this right. Winnie the Pooh is no longer allowed in China [1]. So they turn it off at the firewall. This is better than say, trying to force all the other companies in the world to comply with some stupid law that China makes up. While I disagree with China on their use of the firewall to block speech, it's a far better way to do it than to sue Disney to prevent Winnie the Pooh products from coming over into China. [1] https://www.bbc.com/news/blogs-china-blog-40627855 https://www.bbc.com/news/blogs-china-blog-40627855

repsilat 8y ago
Look at what China is doing to airlines -- "Say Taiwan is a part of China or we won't let you operate here." They have essentially the same policy as everyone else -- we'll force you to follow our laws, and if we can't we'll shut you out. Blocking the Winnie the Pooh content is no different. If China made up a large part of the audience of those sites, they would "have to" change. Ditto GDPR -- you can just ignore it and block Europe if you want, they're not forcing you to do anything.
- bb88 8y ago
  Edited to Add: The last time I checked, the US believes that Taiwan is part of China. [1] China has the stupid laws here. Instead of forcing them onto the rest of the world, they prevent the content from coming into their state. Likewise GDPR is a "stupid" law, so it's the EU's job to prevent non GDPR sites from coming into Europe, and not Facebook's responsiblity for complying with a stupid law. https://www.state.gov/r/pa/ei/bgn/35855.htm https://www.state.gov/r/pa/ei/bgn/35855.htm
  - jakelazaroff 8y ago
    > it's the EU's job to prevent non GDPR sites from coming into Europe, and not Facebook's responsiblity for complying with a stupid law. As the grandparent said, it's not e.g. Facebook's responsibility to comply with the GDPR unless they want to do business in the EU.
    - throwaway11222 8y ago
      To be fair, this article says otherwise: https://www.forbes.com/sites/forbestechcouncil/2017/12/04/yes-the-gdpr-will-affect-your-u-s-based-business/#19ee758f6ff2 https://www.forbes.com/sites/forbestechcouncil/2017/12/04/ye...
      - guitarbill 8y ago
        That article doesn't really say that: > The organization would have to target a data subject in an EU country. Generic marketing doesn’t count. [...] However, any U.S. company that has identified a market in an EU country and has localized Web content should review their Web operations. (It's actually a decent article that captures the nuances of GDPR well.)
Rapzid 8y ago
Until they can't and become bullies like with Taiwan. I'm actually pretty appalled how easily people point to one or two benefits to the way China handles something while completely ignoring the concessions as evidence of them "doing it right". Never mind these short term benefits are coming at the cost of policies that are an affront to liberty and the modern concept of democracy. So, I'm going to offer a counter opinion; I do not believe China does this "right". Dumb lawsuits are dumb, but I'm not willing to throw the baby out with the bath water.

zeth___ 8y ago

>In the end, what is allowed is the intersection of behavior that's not penalized in any state of the world. That is hardly true. We do not follow the rules of Saudi Arabia and Iran. What happens is that the laws of the US and the intersection of local laws are what needs to be followed. The US is aghast that the EU is a large enough market to actually impact the rules of the global internet, and the laws are different enough that they will hurt the major US players. Now all of a sudden people are seeing why applying national laws to pure cyberspace is a bad idea. I'm moving into using tor because it feels more like the internet I knew from 1998-2006, slow-ish, unreliable, unpolished, anonymous, ephemeral and private, with all the warts there to see. In short a new network that takes A Declaration of the Independence of Cyberspace seriously.

tedunangst 8y ago

And yet I'm constantly told that European banks make it trivial to transfer money without middlemen like visa. So why not just submit payment that way?

dasil003 8y ago
It's only trivial within each country, not across borders.
- pas 8y ago
  No, it's pretty trivial for SEPA countries. https://www.ecb.europa.eu/paym/retpaym/paymint/sepa/html/index.en.html https://www.ecb.europa.eu/paym/retpaym/paymint/sepa/html/ind... Do you know of any problem? Instant clearing/settlement is in TARGET2 which is the ECB's vision for 2020.
  - iMerNibor 8y ago
    Stupid high fees from uk banks, for example (we're talking a flat ~15€ per transaction)
    - nissehulth 8y ago
      For SEPA transfers? Are you sure you're not mixing it up with SWIFT transfers?
    - def_true_false 8y ago
      Like with anything else, you just need to use a provider that doesn't suck.
- jacquesm 8y ago
  That was true up to 1/1/2018. Now the transfers take a couple of minutes in most cases. The frustrating thing is that it is now quicker for me to move money between say ABN-Amro in NL and some Polish or Romanian bank than it is to transfer between ABN-Amro in NL and a RABO or ING account in NL.

randaouser 8y ago

check out spankchain: https://spankchain.com/ https://spankchain.com/ -high speed -prevents this nonsense

Drdrdrq 8y ago
Payment for adult content is where Ethereum and similar cryptocurrencies would solve a real problem. Of course tokens (like SpankChain) are not really needed for a solution, one could use ETH directly. The anonymity of transactions could be problematic though...
- jMyles 8y ago
  SpankChain is a very sensible layer on top of Ethereum, allowing workers to bring their reputation and fanbase with them across services and avoid lock-in. This is exactly the kind of thing that makes sense to build on top of Ethereum.
  - Drdrdrq 8y ago
    I wish them luck and hope they solve payment processing problems for adult performers once and for all. That said, the only point of a separate token I see is getting them money so they can actually implement the system. From end users' point of view it would be easier if ETH was used directly imho.
    - jMyles 8y ago
      Well, if the client is the "end user", then sure. But consider the benefits that the worker gets.

technion 8y ago

Fetlife is also the canonical demonstration that cryptocurrencies don't solve these problems. They tried accepting BTC. Noone used it, even while they were struggling with Visa. They pulled the support citing lack of use.

wishinghand 8y ago
Don't they only accept actual money now, via ACH or debit card payments?
gizmo686 8y ago
This isn't true anymore. I just logged on to check, and they support payment by: * Bitcoin * Bank Transfer (from select countries [0]) * Major brand gift cards * Checks/Cash through the mail * Prepaid Paysafecard * Przlewy24 (Something available to people with a bank account in Poland) * Interac e-Transfer (Something available to people with a bank account in Canada) [0] US, European (with a SEPA supporting bank), Australia, New Zealand, Dutch (with iDEAL supporting bank), Austria (with EPS supporting bank), Germany (with giropay supporting bank) No idea about the usage though.