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> I wish that the EU structures are reformed into something that resembles a "standard" modern democratic government The problem with that is that it would giv

by pcrh 8y ago

> I wish that the EU structures are reformed into something that resembles a "standard" modern democratic government The problem with that is that it would give democratic legitimacy to the EU parliament and commission. This would then place them in conflict with national parliaments. The EU is by design a "Union of States", preserving national sovereignty, rather than a "Union of people".

gmueckl 8y ago
The Parliament is already legitimized by the people in a direct vote. Having multiple levels of governments legitimized by the people is nothing new, either. Both the Federal Republic of Germany and the United States of America work that way. This is a system that works in practice.
- pcrh 8y ago
  The council of ministers (delegates from each member state) can veto any legislation proposed by the commission or parliament. In Germany, USA, etc, the demos elects the president, in the EU the president is proposed by the council of ministers. EU parliment is not allowed to do likewise. This way ultimate power lies with the member nations, not in the Brussels hierarchy.
  - ginko 8y ago
    >In Germany ... the demos elects the president Not exactly. The German Bundespräsident is elected by the Bundestag (although that position is arguably mostly representative anyways). Even the German chancelor is suggested by the Bundespräsident and then voted in by the Bundestag. Of course it's usually the leader of the largest faction in th last federal election that's suggested, but that's technically not a requirement.
    - gmueckl 8y ago
      Minor correction: The Bundespräsident (President of the Federal Republic) is elected by the Bundesversammlung (Federal Convention), which only exists for this purpose. It consists of the members of the Bundestag and an equal number of members chosen by the states. It is a quirk of the German constitution that the executive positions in the government are voted on by the legislative branch and not by the people directly. It prevents populists from gaining easy access to important government positions.
  - gmueckl 8y ago
    > This way ultimate power lies with the member nations, not in the Brussels hierarchy. This is a slight simplification. Only the executive branches of the state governments hold power over all branches of the EU. The legislative branches of the member states get none of that. This imbalance is part of what makes the EU lawmaking such an opaque (and arguably even exploitable) process.
    - picsao 8y ago
      If the demos rejects a law it's reintroduced under a different name until the law passes due to exhaustion. The European Union is a stillborn atrocitie in need of a coup de grace so that all this corruption cruft can be undone. After all that.. A new union can be attempted with all the lessons learned.
    - pcrh 8y ago
      Perhaps. However, EU legislation only covers a limited number of areas, mostly to do with trade and standards. With a few additional areas such as migration within the EU itself. That is, it has limited impact on purely national matters, or military or foreign affairs.

by pcrh 8y ago

gmueckl 8y ago

The Parliament is already legitimized by the people in a direct vote. Having multiple levels of governments legitimized by the people is nothing new, either. Both the Federal Republic of Germany and the United States of America work that way. This is a system that works in practice.

pcrh 8y ago
The council of ministers (delegates from each member state) can veto any legislation proposed by the commission or parliament. In Germany, USA, etc, the demos elects the president, in the EU the president is proposed by the council of ministers. EU parliment is not allowed to do likewise. This way ultimate power lies with the member nations, not in the Brussels hierarchy.
- ginko 8y ago
  >In Germany ... the demos elects the president Not exactly. The German Bundespräsident is elected by the Bundestag (although that position is arguably mostly representative anyways). Even the German chancelor is suggested by the Bundespräsident and then voted in by the Bundestag. Of course it's usually the leader of the largest faction in th last federal election that's suggested, but that's technically not a requirement.
  - gmueckl 8y ago
    Minor correction: The Bundespräsident (President of the Federal Republic) is elected by the Bundesversammlung (Federal Convention), which only exists for this purpose. It consists of the members of the Bundestag and an equal number of members chosen by the states. It is a quirk of the German constitution that the executive positions in the government are voted on by the legislative branch and not by the people directly. It prevents populists from gaining easy access to important government positions.
- gmueckl 8y ago
  > This way ultimate power lies with the member nations, not in the Brussels hierarchy. This is a slight simplification. Only the executive branches of the state governments hold power over all branches of the EU. The legislative branches of the member states get none of that. This imbalance is part of what makes the EU lawmaking such an opaque (and arguably even exploitable) process.
  - picsao 8y ago
    If the demos rejects a law it's reintroduced under a different name until the law passes due to exhaustion. The European Union is a stillborn atrocitie in need of a coup de grace so that all this corruption cruft can be undone. After all that.. A new union can be attempted with all the lessons learned.
  - pcrh 8y ago
    Perhaps. However, EU legislation only covers a limited number of areas, mostly to do with trade and standards. With a few additional areas such as migration within the EU itself. That is, it has limited impact on purely national matters, or military or foreign affairs.