4 ms·

Fiat Chrysler Is Being Sued Over a Software Flaw

27 points by ax00x 8y ago

freehunter 8y ago
>Fiat Chrysler had issued two technical service bulletins relating to Pacifica’s PCM software before the plaintiffs had purchased their vehicle Aren't TSB's public knowledge? (Answer: yes [1]). So if FCA issued a TSB for this before the customer purchased the van, how much responsibility do they have to tell the customer every known issue with the product before they sign the papers? And how much responsibility falls on the customer to research any known issues? I'm responsible at work for talking about our software before customers make the purchase... should I be worried that now I have to have a slide in my deck that talks about every known defect in the product, even though our bug tracker is publicly visible? [1] https://www-odi.nhtsa.dot.gov/owners/SearchSafetyIssues https://www-odi.nhtsa.dot.gov/owners/SearchSafetyIssues
- Someone1234 8y ago
  I think you misread/misunderstood the article, the judge used the TSB's to decide AGAINST Fiat-Crysler's argument. FSA was arguing that they had no knowledge of the defect, and that the complainant couldn't show otherwise, but TSB's sent to dealerships prove they did know. That's why the case could proceed. > However, he pointed out that Fiat Chrysler had issued two technical service bulletins relating to Pacifica’s PCM software before the plaintiffs had purchased their vehicle, and two more following their purchase. Plus you're also mistaken on TSBs. Technical service bulletins are normally sent to dealerships and other authorized repair centers, they aren't for public consumption (although most leak, if you look on forums, etc). NHTSA notices and TSBs aren't the same thing at all.
AdmiralAsshat 8y ago
I feel like the headline is trying to frame the lawsuit as frivolous, as if software flaws are inherently unworthy of lawsuits. But a critical safety issue is a safety issue, regardless of whether it's a mechanical failure or a software failure. Several people died due to a software flaw in Toyota's anti-lock brake software.[0] [0]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2009%E2%80%9311_Toyota_vehicle_recalls#Anti-lock_brake_software_recall https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2009%E2%80%9311_Toyota_vehicle...
- noja 8y ago
  I read the headline as being about something new, not frivolous.
- Someone1234 8y ago
  Indeed, and while I don't think anyone died as a result of this flaw, it was only a matter of time if not repaired and recalled. The complaints/incidents are pretty terrifying: freeway speeds, stall, and complete power loss (e.g. power steering, hazard warning lights, brake assist, etc all gone) and you couldn't even restart until you put the vehicle into park/0 MpH. The "lucky" people only had it stall out at traffic lights, the unlikely people had to go in the fast lane on the freeway.
badwolf 8y ago
Could you just imagine all the headlines and HN outrage if you replaced "Fiat Chrysler" with "Tesla" That aside >Dealers, it said, will install a new software flash update to Pacifica powertrain control modules for free. This seems like something an OTA update could have resolved.
- lttlrck 8y ago
  It’s also something that an OTA update could cause. And the existence of OTA updates could actually make it more likely if the initial quality is not held to account because ‘it can be patched later’
gonyea 8y ago
I have this car and it’s done this 4 times so far. Really scary. You’ll be driving and all of a sudden the engine stops, and the dash says to place the car into park to turn it on. Imagine making a turn and your engine dying mid-way; that’s exactly what happened to us. People die getting t-boned that way. Buying a Chrysler was a huge mistake; no one will acknowledge the problem. There are Pacifica forums with over 100 pages of posts from people talking about this issue.
- Declanomous 8y ago
  > Buying a Chrysler was a huge mistake One of my good friends is an automotive engineer. He's told me never to buy a Chrysler product, no matter what. That includes Jeep, Fiat, Dodge, Ram, etc. It's pretty bad when the people who design your cars literally think you are the worst car on the market. I tell people this when they are looking for cars, and they always tell me "Well I asked the salesman about [whatever issue they heard Chryslers have], and he said they got rid of those issues." Without fail, a few years later there are a whole bunch of problems with whatever Chrysler. I really don't understand how your cost accounting can be so terrible that literally everything you design has a horrible flaw. I guess they stay in business because people always want Jeeps and cheap cars that have 'luxury' interiors.
  - gonyea 8y ago
    My expectation was that the car would start to have issues gradually. Eg, you can generally hear when an engine starts to misbehave. I got the Pacifica b/c it was a quiet, comfortable ride and accepted the higher cost of ownership. Now I wonder if their airbags will actually deploy in a crash. Cars are now becoming a pile of soft-buttons, and I don’t see how that makes he experience better. There’s no physical lever to stop your car in an emergency in most new cars. Just a [P] toggle. Even the Chrysler has a really dumb knob for changing gears on the transmission (which people often confuse with a volume knob). I may just buy a Chevy Tahoe next; it’s a much simpler car with sufficient luxury & tech.
    - Someone1234 8y ago

27 points by ax00x 8y ago

>Fiat Chrysler had issued two technical service bulletins relating to Pacifica’s PCM software before the plaintiffs had purchased their vehicle Aren't TSB's public knowledge? (Answer: yes [1]). So if FCA issued a TSB for this before the customer purchased the van, how much responsibility do they have to tell the customer every known issue with the product before they sign the papers? And how much responsibility falls on the customer to research any known issues? I'm responsible at work for talking about our software before customers make the purchase... should I be worried that now I have to have a slide in my deck that talks about every known defect in the product, even though our bug tracker is publicly visible? [1] https://www-odi.nhtsa.dot.gov/owners/SearchSafetyIssues https://www-odi.nhtsa.dot.gov/owners/SearchSafetyIssues

Someone1234 8y ago
I think you misread/misunderstood the article, the judge used the TSB's to decide AGAINST Fiat-Crysler's argument. FSA was arguing that they had no knowledge of the defect, and that the complainant couldn't show otherwise, but TSB's sent to dealerships prove they did know. That's why the case could proceed. > However, he pointed out that Fiat Chrysler had issued two technical service bulletins relating to Pacifica’s PCM software before the plaintiffs had purchased their vehicle, and two more following their purchase. Plus you're also mistaken on TSBs. Technical service bulletins are normally sent to dealerships and other authorized repair centers, they aren't for public consumption (although most leak, if you look on forums, etc). NHTSA notices and TSBs aren't the same thing at all.

AdmiralAsshat 8y ago

I feel like the headline is trying to frame the lawsuit as frivolous, as if software flaws are inherently unworthy of lawsuits. But a critical safety issue is a safety issue, regardless of whether it's a mechanical failure or a software failure. Several people died due to a software flaw in Toyota's anti-lock brake software.[0] [0]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2009%E2%80%9311_Toyota_vehicle_recalls#Anti-lock_brake_software_recall https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2009%E2%80%9311_Toyota_vehicle...

noja 8y ago
I read the headline as being about something new, not frivolous.
Someone1234 8y ago
Indeed, and while I don't think anyone died as a result of this flaw, it was only a matter of time if not repaired and recalled. The complaints/incidents are pretty terrifying: freeway speeds, stall, and complete power loss (e.g. power steering, hazard warning lights, brake assist, etc all gone) and you couldn't even restart until you put the vehicle into park/0 MpH. The "lucky" people only had it stall out at traffic lights, the unlikely people had to go in the fast lane on the freeway.

badwolf 8y ago

Could you just imagine all the headlines and HN outrage if you replaced "Fiat Chrysler" with "Tesla" That aside >Dealers, it said, will install a new software flash update to Pacifica powertrain control modules for free. This seems like something an OTA update could have resolved.

lttlrck 8y ago
It’s also something that an OTA update could cause. And the existence of OTA updates could actually make it more likely if the initial quality is not held to account because ‘it can be patched later’

gonyea 8y ago

I have this car and it’s done this 4 times so far. Really scary. You’ll be driving and all of a sudden the engine stops, and the dash says to place the car into park to turn it on. Imagine making a turn and your engine dying mid-way; that’s exactly what happened to us. People die getting t-boned that way. Buying a Chrysler was a huge mistake; no one will acknowledge the problem. There are Pacifica forums with over 100 pages of posts from people talking about this issue.

Declanomous 8y ago
> Buying a Chrysler was a huge mistake One of my good friends is an automotive engineer. He's told me never to buy a Chrysler product, no matter what. That includes Jeep, Fiat, Dodge, Ram, etc. It's pretty bad when the people who design your cars literally think you are the worst car on the market. I tell people this when they are looking for cars, and they always tell me "Well I asked the salesman about [whatever issue they heard Chryslers have], and he said they got rid of those issues." Without fail, a few years later there are a whole bunch of problems with whatever Chrysler. I really don't understand how your cost accounting can be so terrible that literally everything you design has a horrible flaw. I guess they stay in business because people always want Jeeps and cheap cars that have 'luxury' interiors.
- gonyea 8y ago
  My expectation was that the car would start to have issues gradually. Eg, you can generally hear when an engine starts to misbehave. I got the Pacifica b/c it was a quiet, comfortable ride and accepted the higher cost of ownership. Now I wonder if their airbags will actually deploy in a crash. Cars are now becoming a pile of soft-buttons, and I don’t see how that makes he experience better. There’s no physical lever to stop your car in an emergency in most new cars. Just a [P] toggle. Even the Chrysler has a really dumb knob for changing gears on the transmission (which people often confuse with a volume knob). I may just buy a Chevy Tahoe next; it’s a much simpler car with sufficient luxury & tech.
  - Someone1234 8y ago