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If your going to talk about abusing people's privacy then perhaps you should also mention how Apple abuses the privacy of their Chinese users by allowing the Ch

If your going to talk about abusing people's privacy then perhaps you should also mention how Apple abuses the privacy of their Chinese users by allowing the Chinese Government to have unfettered access to all of their cloud data.

zapita 8y ago
That's such an apples-to-oranges comparison... There is nothing Apple can do to preserve their Chinese user's privacy against their own government. Either they stay in China and allow the government to access their citizen's data, or they leave China and another phone manufacturer will allow the government to access their citizen's data. Google on the other hand is under no such pressure to violate their user's privacy. They could stop at any time, but have decided that the increased revenue and margins they can extract from the data is more valuable than their user's privacy. This seems so obvious to me, I don't understand why this false equivalence is brought up so often.
- sharcerer 8y ago
  China was a big market for Google. But they pulled out for censorship/privacy reasons, letting go of billions of $.
- petee 8y ago
  > There is nothing Apple can do to preserve their Chinese user's privacy against their own government. Either they stay in China and allow the government to access their citizen's data, or they leave China and another phone manufacturer will allow the government to access their citizen's data. Apple could absolutely leave China if they really cared about privacy; the backlash against the govt would be huge - your argument "but if we're not abusing your privacy, someone else might instead!" just backs the claim that Apple is doing it by choice, and their own free will. Both are doing it for money.
  - __sr__ 8y ago
    There will be no “backlash” against the government. China is not a typical democracy. And do you really want a corporation to have the ability to hold a nation state hostage? What’s next? Allow us to sell our stuff without taxes, or we’ll shut shop and let you handle the outcry? Allow us to circumvent <insert a corporate unfriendly law here> or we’ll let you have it? For better or worse, a corporation can’t be allowed to dictate the policies of a nation state. Yes, it is sad that the Chinese don’t get the same privacy rights as citizens of other countries, but that is a problem with the law of the land, not any company.
- bitmapbrother 8y ago
  Actually, there is something Apple can do. They can start by not offering iCloud services in China. Sure, it would be an inconvenience for many, but at least they would be protecting the privacy of their users by not sharing their data with the government. >Google on the other hand is under no such pressure to violate their user's privacy. They could stop at any time, but have decided that the increased revenue and margins they can extract from the data is more valuable than their user's privacy. There is also no pressure on Apple to violate their users privacy. But, they do it because China represents a large percentage of their revenue growth. If it were not for their cooperation with the Chinese government their stock would tank. China is one of their largest markets, if not the largest, so of course privacy was always going to take a back seat. >This seems so obvious to me, I don't understand why this false equivalence is brought up so often. Probably because of Apple's hypocrisy on privacy and human rights. It's absolutely disgusting to listen Tim Cook preach about human rights and privacy, with every interview he does, considering their business practices in China.
  - gurkendoktor 8y ago
    > They can start by not offering iCloud services in China. Even better, they could only offer end-to-end encrypted services in China so that the datacenter operators can't track more than the ISPs already can.
  - __sr__ 8y ago
    At the same time, there is no pressure on users to use iCloud. Or even buy Apple devices. Apple doesn’t have a monopoly in any segment.
__sr__ 8y ago
That is one of the worst arguments I’ve ever heard. Apple (or any other company) can’t refuse the law of the land. Had they refused, the Chinese government would simply have told them to pack their bags. Someone else would have replaced Apple and the users would still be in the same position. Apple can go against prevalent business practices, other companies etc, but they can’t go against the law. And they shouldn’t even try! Do you really want a corporation having enough power to go against the law? If you live in a country where someone (including the government) can legally force you to forego your privacy, there is literally nothing you can do - except try and get the laws changed - something you may not have the power to do - even in a democracy. The difference between Apple and Google is that Google is doing things which may not be desirable despite no law compelling them to. If the US government (or any other government) manages to pass a law which says that Apple must turn over all the user data they have - or that they must collect certain types of data, there is nothing Apple can do other than comply - or shut shop. The sole reason other Apple can resist other countries’ governments is because no one has passed laws similar to China yet. There are people who resist the passage of such laws - something that is not the case with China. Apple (or any corporation) is not going to war with a nation state over the rights of the said nation state.
- bitmapbrother 8y ago
  Your defense of Apple's cooperation with the Chinese government is repugnant. Apple could have easily decided not to open data centers in China if they really valued the privacy of their Chinese users. Tim Cook said that privacy is a human right. Apparently, Tim Cook doesn't believe Chinese citizens deserve privacy because they happily hand over all of their data to the Chinese government. It's quite clear that that the additional revenue generated by the Chinese App store and iCloud services far exceeds the human rights of their users. >The difference between Apple and Google is that Google is doing things which may not be desirable despite no law compelling them to. No, the difference between Apple and Google is that Google decided to leave China rather than cooperate with the government. >If the US government (or any other government) manages to pass a law which says that Apple must turn over all the user data they have - or that they must collect certain types of data, there is nothing Apple can do other than comply - or shut shop. Shut shop? You mean like how Google shut shop?

zapita 8y ago

That's such an apples-to-oranges comparison... There is nothing Apple can do to preserve their Chinese user's privacy against their own government. Either they stay in China and allow the government to access their citizen's data, or they leave China and another phone manufacturer will allow the government to access their citizen's data. Google on the other hand is under no such pressure to violate their user's privacy. They could stop at any time, but have decided that the increased revenue and margins they can extract from the data is more valuable than their user's privacy. This seems so obvious to me, I don't understand why this false equivalence is brought up so often.

sharcerer 8y ago
China was a big market for Google. But they pulled out for censorship/privacy reasons, letting go of billions of $.
petee 8y ago
> There is nothing Apple can do to preserve their Chinese user's privacy against their own government. Either they stay in China and allow the government to access their citizen's data, or they leave China and another phone manufacturer will allow the government to access their citizen's data. Apple could absolutely leave China if they really cared about privacy; the backlash against the govt would be huge - your argument "but if we're not abusing your privacy, someone else might instead!" just backs the claim that Apple is doing it by choice, and their own free will. Both are doing it for money.
- __sr__ 8y ago
  There will be no “backlash” against the government. China is not a typical democracy. And do you really want a corporation to have the ability to hold a nation state hostage? What’s next? Allow us to sell our stuff without taxes, or we’ll shut shop and let you handle the outcry? Allow us to circumvent <insert a corporate unfriendly law here> or we’ll let you have it? For better or worse, a corporation can’t be allowed to dictate the policies of a nation state. Yes, it is sad that the Chinese don’t get the same privacy rights as citizens of other countries, but that is a problem with the law of the land, not any company.
bitmapbrother 8y ago
Actually, there is something Apple can do. They can start by not offering iCloud services in China. Sure, it would be an inconvenience for many, but at least they would be protecting the privacy of their users by not sharing their data with the government. >Google on the other hand is under no such pressure to violate their user's privacy. They could stop at any time, but have decided that the increased revenue and margins they can extract from the data is more valuable than their user's privacy. There is also no pressure on Apple to violate their users privacy. But, they do it because China represents a large percentage of their revenue growth. If it were not for their cooperation with the Chinese government their stock would tank. China is one of their largest markets, if not the largest, so of course privacy was always going to take a back seat. >This seems so obvious to me, I don't understand why this false equivalence is brought up so often. Probably because of Apple's hypocrisy on privacy and human rights. It's absolutely disgusting to listen Tim Cook preach about human rights and privacy, with every interview he does, considering their business practices in China.
- gurkendoktor 8y ago
  > They can start by not offering iCloud services in China. Even better, they could only offer end-to-end encrypted services in China so that the datacenter operators can't track more than the ISPs already can.
- __sr__ 8y ago
  At the same time, there is no pressure on users to use iCloud. Or even buy Apple devices. Apple doesn’t have a monopoly in any segment.

__sr__ 8y ago

That is one of the worst arguments I’ve ever heard. Apple (or any other company) can’t refuse the law of the land. Had they refused, the Chinese government would simply have told them to pack their bags. Someone else would have replaced Apple and the users would still be in the same position. Apple can go against prevalent business practices, other companies etc, but they can’t go against the law. And they shouldn’t even try! Do you really want a corporation having enough power to go against the law? If you live in a country where someone (including the government) can legally force you to forego your privacy, there is literally nothing you can do - except try and get the laws changed - something you may not have the power to do - even in a democracy. The difference between Apple and Google is that Google is doing things which may not be desirable despite no law compelling them to. If the US government (or any other government) manages to pass a law which says that Apple must turn over all the user data they have - or that they must collect certain types of data, there is nothing Apple can do other than comply - or shut shop. The sole reason other Apple can resist other countries’ governments is because no one has passed laws similar to China yet. There are people who resist the passage of such laws - something that is not the case with China. Apple (or any corporation) is not going to war with a nation state over the rights of the said nation state.

bitmapbrother 8y ago
Your defense of Apple's cooperation with the Chinese government is repugnant. Apple could have easily decided not to open data centers in China if they really valued the privacy of their Chinese users. Tim Cook said that privacy is a human right. Apparently, Tim Cook doesn't believe Chinese citizens deserve privacy because they happily hand over all of their data to the Chinese government. It's quite clear that that the additional revenue generated by the Chinese App store and iCloud services far exceeds the human rights of their users. >The difference between Apple and Google is that Google is doing things which may not be desirable despite no law compelling them to. No, the difference between Apple and Google is that Google decided to leave China rather than cooperate with the government. >If the US government (or any other government) manages to pass a law which says that Apple must turn over all the user data they have - or that they must collect certain types of data, there is nothing Apple can do other than comply - or shut shop. Shut shop? You mean like how Google shut shop?