5 ms·

The biggest problem with hiring foreign contractors is not that they're foreign, but that the mindset required to hire them cannot attract good hackers. More s

by mlinsey 19y ago

The biggest problem with hiring foreign contractors is not that they're foreign, but that the mindset required to hire them cannot attract good hackers. More specifically, the kind of people who decide to save money on development by hiring offshore contractors are usually the kind of people who think programmers are interchangeable parts and can't tell the difference between a good and bad developer. But even if you are a hacker yourself and a good judge of programming talent, it's very hard for you to find good people when you are in a different continent. Think about how difficult it is to attract good talent right here in America. Even if you're in an area with a comparatively high concentration of talented programmers (let's say Silicon Valley), you will probably not find the best people by waiting for them to come to you. You have to get into the right circles, or get referrals from people you trust, or go to meetups like Startup School that attract the kind of people you want, etc. etc. Now what if you were thousands of miles away? Would you be able to do any of that? Maybe via websites like this or by collaborating on open source projects, but I doubt that those are the avenues by which companies are hiring foreign contractors. I know of a few companies with solid offshore development operations that are staffed with very good people. In every single case, there was someone from the company on the ground in that country, finding and hiring people in the same way that the company would do in the states.

plinkplonk 19y ago
"The biggest problem with hiring foreign contractors is not that they're foreign, but that the mindset required to hire them cannot attract good hackers. More specifically, the kind of people who decide to save money on development by hiring offshore contractors are usually the kind of people who think programmers are interchangeable parts and can't tell the difference between a good and bad developer." As someone who lives and works in Bangalore, India, I can confirm this. Great programmers in Ruby (or any other language) are just as rare here as anywhere else. They have a distinct aversion to these "we have done the core work now you clean up / tweak the code at 20$/hr" offers. Someone who is really good at programming can work at google/yahoo/amazon or found a startup. Why should she work at 20 $ / hr for clowns like the author of this post? "But even if you are a hacker yourself and a good judge of programming talent, it's very hard for you to find good people when you are in a different continent. Think about how difficult it is to attract good talent right here in America. Even if you're in an area with a comparatively high concentration of talented programmers (let's say Silicon Valley), you will probably not find the best people by waiting for them to come to you. You have to get into the right circles, or get referrals from people you trust, or go to meetups like Startup School that attract the kind of people you want, etc. etc. Now what if you were thousands of miles away?" This is exactly true. The only way to find good hackers in India (or Argentina for that matter) is to know good people on the ground before you start your search. And how many people in the United States are in a position to do that? Here is a hint for people who insist on hiring offshore resources "blind". Ask for evidence of open source projects or contributions. This immediately eliminates the riffraff who swarm during a boom (and the software industry is booming in Bangalore). Every decent programmer I know in Bangalore has or contributes to an open source project. Ask to see a blog so you can judge written communication skills. Every good programmer I know has a blog. Once you've done all this, make sure you have interesting work to offer. When you outsource garbage work you get roaches. Why are you surprised at this? My 2 rupees.
- dcurtis 19y ago
  The problem is, if you have standards this high, you'll never find someone. The good programmers you talk about are extremely rare.
- Tichy 19y ago
  I've heard that India is not really low cost anymore. Also, IT industry has been booming for years in India. I wonder if there is a "next cheap" country coming up that will catch the next outsourcing wave. A few years ago I worked with developers from eastern Europe, and they were very capable for 1/3 or 1/4 of the price.
  - plinkplonk 19y ago
    "I've heard that India is not really low cost anymore." This is not completely true. If you are trying to outsource to companies, sure it is getting more expensive all the time. They have to pay legions of useless managers / "process control" (think ISO 9000) people from the money the programmers earn. If you have interesting work, you can get good programmers at 25-50 $/hr. You could get work done on a fixed fee basis as well (which is what I would reccomend). 10 - 20 k$ would get you a lot of code (assuming you found good people in the first place). A lot of people would like to work from home on decent projects vs being at the mercy of the outsourcing companies where you have little control over what technology/projects you work on. The sheer size of the country's outsourcing industry obscures the fact that there are a lot of good programmers who would want to work on more flexible terms, especially for startups. In that sense, India is still very much unexplored territory.

by mlinsey 19y ago

plinkplonk 19y ago

"The biggest problem with hiring foreign contractors is not that they're foreign, but that the mindset required to hire them cannot attract good hackers. More specifically, the kind of people who decide to save money on development by hiring offshore contractors are usually the kind of people who think programmers are interchangeable parts and can't tell the difference between a good and bad developer." As someone who lives and works in Bangalore, India, I can confirm this. Great programmers in Ruby (or any other language) are just as rare here as anywhere else. They have a distinct aversion to these "we have done the core work now you clean up / tweak the code at 20$/hr" offers. Someone who is really good at programming can work at google/yahoo/amazon or found a startup. Why should she work at 20 $ / hr for clowns like the author of this post? "But even if you are a hacker yourself and a good judge of programming talent, it's very hard for you to find good people when you are in a different continent. Think about how difficult it is to attract good talent right here in America. Even if you're in an area with a comparatively high concentration of talented programmers (let's say Silicon Valley), you will probably not find the best people by waiting for them to come to you. You have to get into the right circles, or get referrals from people you trust, or go to meetups like Startup School that attract the kind of people you want, etc. etc. Now what if you were thousands of miles away?" This is exactly true. The only way to find good hackers in India (or Argentina for that matter) is to know good people on the ground before you start your search. And how many people in the United States are in a position to do that? Here is a hint for people who insist on hiring offshore resources "blind". Ask for evidence of open source projects or contributions. This immediately eliminates the riffraff who swarm during a boom (and the software industry is booming in Bangalore). Every decent programmer I know in Bangalore has or contributes to an open source project. Ask to see a blog so you can judge written communication skills. Every good programmer I know has a blog. Once you've done all this, make sure you have interesting work to offer. When you outsource garbage work you get roaches. Why are you surprised at this? My 2 rupees.

dcurtis 19y ago
The problem is, if you have standards this high, you'll never find someone. The good programmers you talk about are extremely rare.
Tichy 19y ago
I've heard that India is not really low cost anymore. Also, IT industry has been booming for years in India. I wonder if there is a "next cheap" country coming up that will catch the next outsourcing wave. A few years ago I worked with developers from eastern Europe, and they were very capable for 1/3 or 1/4 of the price.
- plinkplonk 19y ago
  "I've heard that India is not really low cost anymore." This is not completely true. If you are trying to outsource to companies, sure it is getting more expensive all the time. They have to pay legions of useless managers / "process control" (think ISO 9000) people from the money the programmers earn. If you have interesting work, you can get good programmers at 25-50 $/hr. You could get work done on a fixed fee basis as well (which is what I would reccomend). 10 - 20 k$ would get you a lot of code (assuming you found good people in the first place). A lot of people would like to work from home on decent projects vs being at the mercy of the outsourcing companies where you have little control over what technology/projects you work on. The sheer size of the country's outsourcing industry obscures the fact that there are a lot of good programmers who would want to work on more flexible terms, especially for startups. In that sense, India is still very much unexplored territory.