5 ms·

(I'm a former kinda-good amateur climber who capped out at 5.12 on a (very) good day in my high school years, and who's related to a former national champion cl

(I'm a former kinda-good amateur climber who capped out at 5.12 on a (very) good day in my high school years, and who's related to a former national champion climber) (EDIT: 5.12 in a gym, not outdoors) I won't speak for anyone else, but in my experience: if you hang out with truly world-class climbers, occasionally getting through a 5.12 doesn't feel impressive at all. Nobody's trying to make you feel worse, of course, but watching someone effortlessly nail something I sweated and struggled through permanently puts my opinion of myself in a strongly-caveated place. "Elite amateur" is a label that's very difficult to self-apply because you see the people who are in the tier(s) above you and it's impossible to not make the comparison. It was pretty motivating for a while for me but I think of myself as "just okay" (even at my best) at climbing because I know how high the ceiling is.

starpilot 8y ago
If it's like most gyms the grades are very soft. 5.12 maybe a 5.10a outdoors.
- braythwayt 8y ago
  Here in Ontario, that very much depends upon the gym and the date the climbs were put up. There are a lot of 80s trad climbs put up with stiff grades, because the OGs that opened the sport were insanely tough and liked nothing more than for visiting climbers to fall off 5.10s. It was some kind of magnificent but toxic culture, very similar to surf culture, with hidden spots and tribal rivalries. The first gym to open in Toronto carried over this tradition, but other gyms eventually opened and went with "friendlier" grades, so there can be a big discrepancy between a new gym's ratings and an old trad climb in Ontario. But newer outside routes, especially new hard sport routes, are put up by climbers with newer grade sensibilities, so the indoor and outdoor grades are consistent.
- AnIdiotOnTheNet 8y ago
  I'm given to understand that grading varies rather wildly in gyms. Even within the gym I frequent the grading fluctuates wildly. Personally, I've taken that as another aspect of the training: work on not caring about the grade.
hvidgaard 8y ago
There will always be outliers in any discipline. I do things 100% or not at all, and seeing others being significantly better than me is a goalpost. It's a mindset, and as long as I'm improving why bother that someone who dedicated their life to something is better? Of course they are. The thing with climbing is that it's a combination of physical and technique. You can train your physique, but you need to be of a certain build to be one of the greatest. And technique is something you never stop improving. So being good in high school, with the right build and perseverance you could have been significantly better in your mid twenties. But it would have been at the cost of the rest of your youth.
- test1235 8y ago
  > But it would have been at the cost of the rest of your youth. That's the key, plus in all likelihood some niggling injuries picked up along the way which might haunt you into old age.
braythwayt 8y ago
> I won't speak for anyone else, but in my experience: if you hang out with > truly world-class climbers, occasionally getting through a 5.12 doesn't feel > impressive at all Yes, it's true that if you hang out with world-class climbers, 5.12 looks like a warm-up. But it's also true that if you poll amateur climbers, being able to consistently red-point 5.12 is rare. being able to consistently on-sight 5.12 is rarer still. I think we can say that consistently climbing 5.12 is not world-class, but it is statistically rare amongst amateurs. Both statements are compatible. We can quibble about whether "elite" means top 1%, top .1%, top .01%, &c. But in general, 5.12 is above the gym or crag duffer level, even regular gym or crag duffers. Occasionally getting through a 5.12 isn't consistently climbing 5.12, mind you. IMO, the only ratings that count are the grades we can consistently red-point, flash, or on-sight. I can say whatever I like about this one Red Gorge 5.12c that had a couple of dynos, but I'm tall and I used to like to dyno. The truth is that the best I ever climbed was to consistently red-point 5.11 outside, with a few flashes and on-sights along the way. Likewise, I think I have two V5s under my belt, but I absolutely never could count on sending even a V3 in one or two tries, so I really think that I climbed about V2 consistently outside, with bunches of V3s that I projected, with the memories of a few V4s and those two V5s to sustain me though my twilight years. --- All that being said, advances in training methods and the increasing popularity of difficulty climbing and bouldering as children's sports is rapidly raising the standard of excellence. Starting young makes as much of a difference in climbing as it does in every other sport. There's nothing quite like hitting your peak physical prowess years with a half-decade or even decade of training under your belt, and your body hasn't put on its adult weight yet. I'd say that 5.12 is rare amongst a certain generation of climbers, but this is not for long. It will soon be common for fifteen year-olds to swarm up 5.12s in gyms, and not long after that 5.10s will be known as "That thing your parents can play with while waiting to drive you home."

starpilot 8y ago

If it's like most gyms the grades are very soft. 5.12 maybe a 5.10a outdoors.

braythwayt 8y ago
Here in Ontario, that very much depends upon the gym and the date the climbs were put up. There are a lot of 80s trad climbs put up with stiff grades, because the OGs that opened the sport were insanely tough and liked nothing more than for visiting climbers to fall off 5.10s. It was some kind of magnificent but toxic culture, very similar to surf culture, with hidden spots and tribal rivalries. The first gym to open in Toronto carried over this tradition, but other gyms eventually opened and went with "friendlier" grades, so there can be a big discrepancy between a new gym's ratings and an old trad climb in Ontario. But newer outside routes, especially new hard sport routes, are put up by climbers with newer grade sensibilities, so the indoor and outdoor grades are consistent.
AnIdiotOnTheNet 8y ago
I'm given to understand that grading varies rather wildly in gyms. Even within the gym I frequent the grading fluctuates wildly. Personally, I've taken that as another aspect of the training: work on not caring about the grade.

hvidgaard 8y ago

There will always be outliers in any discipline. I do things 100% or not at all, and seeing others being significantly better than me is a goalpost. It's a mindset, and as long as I'm improving why bother that someone who dedicated their life to something is better? Of course they are. The thing with climbing is that it's a combination of physical and technique. You can train your physique, but you need to be of a certain build to be one of the greatest. And technique is something you never stop improving. So being good in high school, with the right build and perseverance you could have been significantly better in your mid twenties. But it would have been at the cost of the rest of your youth.

test1235 8y ago
> But it would have been at the cost of the rest of your youth. That's the key, plus in all likelihood some niggling injuries picked up along the way which might haunt you into old age.

braythwayt 8y ago

> I won't speak for anyone else, but in my experience: if you hang out with > truly world-class climbers, occasionally getting through a 5.12 doesn't feel > impressive at all Yes, it's true that if you hang out with world-class climbers, 5.12 looks like a warm-up. But it's also true that if you poll amateur climbers, being able to consistently red-point 5.12 is rare. being able to consistently on-sight 5.12 is rarer still. I think we can say that consistently climbing 5.12 is not world-class, but it is statistically rare amongst amateurs. Both statements are compatible. We can quibble about whether "elite" means top 1%, top .1%, top .01%, &c. But in general, 5.12 is above the gym or crag duffer level, even regular gym or crag duffers. Occasionally getting through a 5.12 isn't consistently climbing 5.12, mind you. IMO, the only ratings that count are the grades we can consistently red-point, flash, or on-sight. I can say whatever I like about this one Red Gorge 5.12c that had a couple of dynos, but I'm tall and I used to like to dyno. The truth is that the best I ever climbed was to consistently red-point 5.11 outside, with a few flashes and on-sights along the way. Likewise, I think I have two V5s under my belt, but I absolutely never could count on sending even a V3 in one or two tries, so I really think that I climbed about V2 consistently outside, with bunches of V3s that I projected, with the memories of a few V4s and those two V5s to sustain me though my twilight years. --- All that being said, advances in training methods and the increasing popularity of difficulty climbing and bouldering as children's sports is rapidly raising the standard of excellence. Starting young makes as much of a difference in climbing as it does in every other sport. There's nothing quite like hitting your peak physical prowess years with a half-decade or even decade of training under your belt, and your body hasn't put on its adult weight yet. I'd say that 5.12 is rare amongst a certain generation of climbers, but this is not for long. It will soon be common for fifteen year-olds to swarm up 5.12s in gyms, and not long after that 5.10s will be known as "That thing your parents can play with while waiting to drive you home."