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Huh? 5.12 is elite amateur climber. Some people aren't able to do that after years of consistent climbing.

PierceJoy 8y ago
I disagree with that. As long as you keep your bodyweight in check, and climb consistently, 5.12 will be in reach. I started climbing a year ago, am just edging in to the overweight range of BMI, and am leading 5.11b. I see lots of people leading in the 5.12s who are not elite by any measure.
- starpilot 8y ago
  Are you referring to outdoor grades, or gym grades?
  - PierceJoy 8y ago
    Outdoor. I live near one of the top climbing destinations in North America, and grading here is well established.
    - starpilot 8y ago
      Congrats on being a quickly progressing climber. I met woman climbs 100+ days per year and has been doing so for 8 years, and she's in the moderates (10a-10c's). I also met a guy who's been climbing 6 months leading 11b outdoors. Everything I've about grades says that climbing 12 and above is rarefied territory for most people: https://www.mountainproject.com/forum/topic/106352022/number-of-climbers-currently-at-each-grade https://www.mountainproject.com/forum/topic/106352022/number... though there are outliers. Chris Sharma was climbing for a year before he was doing the hardest sport routes in the world, but that isn't most people.
      - PierceJoy 8y ago
        All the comments except for one in that thread were just people making up numbers out of thin air. The one comment that had some data is from 2009. They couldn't even name the source, but even if we assume the data is good, there's been an explosion of climbing gyms since 2009. The number of good amateur climbers has increased massively because of that, and the average grade people are able to climb has risen because of the training opportunities gyms provide. > Chris Sharma was climbing for a year before he was doing the hardest sport routes in the world, but that isn't most people. That's true, but 5.12s are not even close to the hardest routes. They're hard, but totally manageable for a dedicated climber.
- sametmax 8y ago
  I'm overweight and really not at ease with my body. I'm afraid of hight as well. After a summer of friends getting me to climb, I managed to pull off 5.10a outdoor. So a lean person in a year can easily reach 5.12.
  - tobltobs 8y ago
    The difference between a 5.10a and a 5.12 is huge. I can do a 5.10a, on a good day I might be able to lead an easy 5.10b. But if I don't put in some serious life changing effort I will never do a 5.12.
twright0 8y ago
(I'm a former kinda-good amateur climber who capped out at 5.12 on a (very) good day in my high school years, and who's related to a former national champion climber) (EDIT: 5.12 in a gym, not outdoors) I won't speak for anyone else, but in my experience: if you hang out with truly world-class climbers, occasionally getting through a 5.12 doesn't feel impressive at all. Nobody's trying to make you feel worse, of course, but watching someone effortlessly nail something I sweated and struggled through permanently puts my opinion of myself in a strongly-caveated place. "Elite amateur" is a label that's very difficult to self-apply because you see the people who are in the tier(s) above you and it's impossible to not make the comparison. It was pretty motivating for a while for me but I think of myself as "just okay" (even at my best) at climbing because I know how high the ceiling is.
- starpilot 8y ago
  If it's like most gyms the grades are very soft. 5.12 maybe a 5.10a outdoors.
  - braythwayt 8y ago
    Here in Ontario, that very much depends upon the gym and the date the climbs were put up. There are a lot of 80s trad climbs put up with stiff grades, because the OGs that opened the sport were insanely tough and liked nothing more than for visiting climbers to fall off 5.10s. It was some kind of magnificent but toxic culture, very similar to surf culture, with hidden spots and tribal rivalries. The first gym to open in Toronto carried over this tradition, but other gyms eventually opened and went with "friendlier" grades, so there can be a big discrepancy between a new gym's ratings and an old trad climb in Ontario. But newer outside routes, especially new hard sport routes, are put up by climbers with newer grade sensibilities, so the indoor and outdoor grades are consistent.
  - AnIdiotOnTheNet 8y ago
    I'm given to understand that grading varies rather wildly in gyms. Even within the gym I frequent the grading fluctuates wildly. Personally, I've taken that as another aspect of the training: work on not caring about the grade.
jasonkester 8y ago
Depends where you live. Here in France, 5.12 is a pretty normal range to be operating in as a reasonably fit, motivated climber. On the crags here, 6th grade (sub-5.11d) sport routes are generally considered warm ups by regular climber folk. I remember Colorado feeling similar. And Spain being the same, but with the level set to 5.13 In the Basque Country. Here in Fontainebleau, it’s rare to see a group of road tripping euros rock up who aren’t all projecting at least 7a (V6). I’ve also lived in Trad communities in the states where 5.10 is something you work up to over years of never falling, so I understand where you’re coming from and how it could seem strange to encounter the Other World where 5.12 is No Big Deal for the first time.
- sametmax 8y ago
  > Here in Fontainebleau, it’s rare to see a group of road tripping euros rock up who aren’t all projecting at least 7a It doesn't help that all the easy rocks are completely polished and unusable after decades of usage.
  - jasonkester 8y ago
    Pro tip: don’t try the “easy” stuff at bas cuvier or sabots (or anyplace sandy). I just ran through the orange circuit at Franchard Hautes Plaines this morning and it was all good friction, even in today’s summer conditions. There are 20,000 boulder problems here. Try as we might it’ll take a while to polish them all.
foobarbecue 8y ago
I mean... it's all relative, right? And exponentially relative. I know people who I climb ten times harder than, and people who climb ten times harder than me... and then Alex climbs 10 times harder than those people. I climbed outdoors 4 days a week in evenings all through grad school (7 years) when I lived near wonderful rocks and that's when I got to 5.12 . Now I live in a big city, spend 60 hrs a week at the office, and am getting weak.

I disagree with that. As long as you keep your bodyweight in check, and climb consistently, 5.12 will be in reach. I started climbing a year ago, am just edging in to the overweight range of BMI, and am leading 5.11b. I see lots of people leading in the 5.12s who are not elite by any measure.

starpilot 8y ago
Are you referring to outdoor grades, or gym grades?
- PierceJoy 8y ago
  Outdoor. I live near one of the top climbing destinations in North America, and grading here is well established.
  - starpilot 8y ago
    Congrats on being a quickly progressing climber. I met woman climbs 100+ days per year and has been doing so for 8 years, and she's in the moderates (10a-10c's). I also met a guy who's been climbing 6 months leading 11b outdoors. Everything I've about grades says that climbing 12 and above is rarefied territory for most people: https://www.mountainproject.com/forum/topic/106352022/number-of-climbers-currently-at-each-grade https://www.mountainproject.com/forum/topic/106352022/number... though there are outliers. Chris Sharma was climbing for a year before he was doing the hardest sport routes in the world, but that isn't most people.
    - PierceJoy 8y ago
      All the comments except for one in that thread were just people making up numbers out of thin air. The one comment that had some data is from 2009. They couldn't even name the source, but even if we assume the data is good, there's been an explosion of climbing gyms since 2009. The number of good amateur climbers has increased massively because of that, and the average grade people are able to climb has risen because of the training opportunities gyms provide. > Chris Sharma was climbing for a year before he was doing the hardest sport routes in the world, but that isn't most people. That's true, but 5.12s are not even close to the hardest routes. They're hard, but totally manageable for a dedicated climber.
sametmax 8y ago
I'm overweight and really not at ease with my body. I'm afraid of hight as well. After a summer of friends getting me to climb, I managed to pull off 5.10a outdoor. So a lean person in a year can easily reach 5.12.
- tobltobs 8y ago
  The difference between a 5.10a and a 5.12 is huge. I can do a 5.10a, on a good day I might be able to lead an easy 5.10b. But if I don't put in some serious life changing effort I will never do a 5.12.

twright0 8y ago

(I'm a former kinda-good amateur climber who capped out at 5.12 on a (very) good day in my high school years, and who's related to a former national champion climber) (EDIT: 5.12 in a gym, not outdoors) I won't speak for anyone else, but in my experience: if you hang out with truly world-class climbers, occasionally getting through a 5.12 doesn't feel impressive at all. Nobody's trying to make you feel worse, of course, but watching someone effortlessly nail something I sweated and struggled through permanently puts my opinion of myself in a strongly-caveated place. "Elite amateur" is a label that's very difficult to self-apply because you see the people who are in the tier(s) above you and it's impossible to not make the comparison. It was pretty motivating for a while for me but I think of myself as "just okay" (even at my best) at climbing because I know how high the ceiling is.

starpilot 8y ago
If it's like most gyms the grades are very soft. 5.12 maybe a 5.10a outdoors.
- braythwayt 8y ago
  Here in Ontario, that very much depends upon the gym and the date the climbs were put up. There are a lot of 80s trad climbs put up with stiff grades, because the OGs that opened the sport were insanely tough and liked nothing more than for visiting climbers to fall off 5.10s. It was some kind of magnificent but toxic culture, very similar to surf culture, with hidden spots and tribal rivalries. The first gym to open in Toronto carried over this tradition, but other gyms eventually opened and went with "friendlier" grades, so there can be a big discrepancy between a new gym's ratings and an old trad climb in Ontario. But newer outside routes, especially new hard sport routes, are put up by climbers with newer grade sensibilities, so the indoor and outdoor grades are consistent.
- AnIdiotOnTheNet 8y ago
  I'm given to understand that grading varies rather wildly in gyms. Even within the gym I frequent the grading fluctuates wildly. Personally, I've taken that as another aspect of the training: work on not caring about the grade.

jasonkester 8y ago

Depends where you live. Here in France, 5.12 is a pretty normal range to be operating in as a reasonably fit, motivated climber. On the crags here, 6th grade (sub-5.11d) sport routes are generally considered warm ups by regular climber folk. I remember Colorado feeling similar. And Spain being the same, but with the level set to 5.13 In the Basque Country. Here in Fontainebleau, it’s rare to see a group of road tripping euros rock up who aren’t all projecting at least 7a (V6). I’ve also lived in Trad communities in the states where 5.10 is something you work up to over years of never falling, so I understand where you’re coming from and how it could seem strange to encounter the Other World where 5.12 is No Big Deal for the first time.

sametmax 8y ago
> Here in Fontainebleau, it’s rare to see a group of road tripping euros rock up who aren’t all projecting at least 7a It doesn't help that all the easy rocks are completely polished and unusable after decades of usage.
- jasonkester 8y ago
  Pro tip: don’t try the “easy” stuff at bas cuvier or sabots (or anyplace sandy). I just ran through the orange circuit at Franchard Hautes Plaines this morning and it was all good friction, even in today’s summer conditions. There are 20,000 boulder problems here. Try as we might it’ll take a while to polish them all.

foobarbecue 8y ago

I mean... it's all relative, right? And exponentially relative. I know people who I climb ten times harder than, and people who climb ten times harder than me... and then Alex climbs 10 times harder than those people. I climbed outdoors 4 days a week in evenings all through grad school (7 years) when I lived near wonderful rocks and that's when I got to 5.12 . Now I live in a big city, spend 60 hrs a week at the office, and am getting weak.