4 ms·

> bad public transit is 10x worse than just sitting in a bit of traffic, or dropping a few bucks on an Uber/Lyft. How can this be true? Public transit allows y

by drb91 8y ago

> bad public transit is 10x worse than just sitting in a bit of traffic, or dropping a few bucks on an Uber/Lyft. How can this be true? Public transit allows your attention to wander and typically is much, much faster than traffic. Adding uber/lyft will get two of the worst attributes: traffic and high cost, although you’ll be able to do something else simultaneously. Furthermore, it’s not clear how parking fees affect low income families: for my commute (between east bay and SF), public transit is an order of magnitude less expensive than driving, especially if you consider parking. Finally, it’s not clear what homeless people have to do with this. The cost of affordable transit is interacting with your neighbors. If you don’t like your neighbors, please don’t screw them over by investing in car-oriented transit.

epicureanideal 8y ago
As the GP said, there are people who are drunk, high, smelling of bodily fluids, etc. There are people who are rude, loud, etc. If this were stopped, then it might be better than being in a car.
- drb91 8y ago
  It already is better than a car. It has a higher throughput and lower cost. If you value luxury, pay more for private transit. This isn’t contrary to a city that invests in public transit. SF is practically undrivable during the week rush hour because people prioritize comfort over economy. So the only knob a city has is to increase expense of driving, or to make public transit more comfortable. I don’t see any humanitarian route to the latter, so I am emphatically for the former.
  - epicureanideal 8y ago
    High throughput and low cost are not the only metrics that commuters care about, clearly, or else they'd be riding public transit. If you offer to PAY ME a dollar to ride on BART next to a smelly, loud homeless person for an hour, versus me PAYING $10 in gas to drive to work, I'll pick the latter without hesitation.
    - drb91 8y ago
      Well, that’s the rational consumer side of you. What about the side of you that’s a member of a community—how do you start caring about externalities?
      - epicureanideal 8y ago
        Theoretically that's what our elected officials should be dealing with. I've tried to intervene with loud or aggressive passengers before and I'll end up being the only person in 40 people on a BART car to do so, and after a couple experiences where I saw that nobody was going to back me up, I decided I should not risk my life over such things. I'd rather drive my car to work and make sure I get home to my children.
        woolvalley 8y ago
        I agree, if elected officials want to reduce traffic, they would put barrier separated bike lanes and keep the trains clean and safe. But the bay area local governments are self-sabotaging parody where it's difficult for anything like that to get done.
- YeGoblynQueenne 8y ago
  >> As the GP said, there are people who are drunk, high, smelling of bodily fluids, etc. There are people who are rude, loud, etc. Excuse me, but- where does that happen? I mention in another comment that I live in a town in England, where I've never had any problems with homeless people in public transport. I also work in London, travel by rail across Europe and often use public transport in three different European countries, France, Italy and Greece. I have never noticed the kind of problem you and the GP flag up. I'm getting the feeling that it's a problem local to a very specific part of the world and by no means a global issue that has to do with the nature of public transport, in general.
  - robbrown451 8y ago
    San Francisco, for one.
    - s2g 8y ago
      Seattle too. Even if they people on the bus are okay, they are still uncomfortable.
  - calohorn 8y ago
    Happens in Portland also
  - toomanybeersies 8y ago
    It's a problem in Melbourne. Although not as bad as America from what I've read here. Trains are mostly fine, but I won't take a bus or a tram if I can avoid it. If I can get somewhere by train or bus, and the train would be 10 minutes slower, I'll take the train. The other day on the tram I had to deal with drunk ex-con listening to his bluetooth speaker and verbally abusing a poor Asian lady to the point she had to get off the tram. I was disgusted, but I wanted my teeth to remain in my mouth, so I couldn't do anything. I've had to deal with plenty of abusive arseholes on the bus too. And even just people being noisy, like South Americans treating the bus like it's a nightclub (which I personally don't mind) or just drunk people yelling at each other because they've forgotten their inside voice. Then some people treat public transport like it's a landfill. Especially on a Friday or Saturday night, public transport will be filled with beer bottles. The drivers don't care. They sit in a little perspex box so that they can't get assaulted by the passengers and just drive the bus or the tram around.
- flukus 8y ago
  > If this were stopped Sorry, but that's called society and it will never be able to compete with the bubble you've built for yourself. If more people were willing too embrace society instead of hiding from it then there's a better chance of improving it.
s2g 8y ago
> How can this be true? It's hot, noisy, uncomfortable, nausea inducing, and I have to put up with people falling asleep on me or homeless people harassing me. The light rail (in Seattle) is fine, but the coverage isn't good enough.
toomanybeersies 8y ago
Trains are faster than traffic. Buses and trams are slower as they're still in traffic, and now have to stop every 500 m to pick up or drop off passengers. I'll usually take an uber if I actually need to get somewhere on time and it's not near a train station.
- jacques_chester 8y ago
  Exclusive bus lanes with special traffic light queue-jumping makes this a more even comparison and costs a lot less than rail.
mrep 8y ago
Maybe you can travel in peace on public transportation but my 5 foot 3 inch 110 pound girlfriend cannot. She gets constantly harassed by guys when I'm not around and some (especially the homeless) get violent about it. And to make matters worse, when you are on a bus, there isn't really anywhere you can go to get away from some creepy guy. Your stuck having to deal with that person until you get to your destination. It's so bad she refuses to use public transportation here in seattle without me due to how unsafe she feels.
u801e 8y ago
It really depends on the public transit system. For me, driving to work takes about 8 minutes. Biking to work takes about 12 minutes. Walking to work takes about 35 minutes. Taking the bus to work takes about 45 minutes (which includes one transfer).

by drb91 8y ago

epicureanideal 8y ago

As the GP said, there are people who are drunk, high, smelling of bodily fluids, etc. There are people who are rude, loud, etc. If this were stopped, then it might be better than being in a car.

drb91 8y ago
It already is better than a car. It has a higher throughput and lower cost. If you value luxury, pay more for private transit. This isn’t contrary to a city that invests in public transit. SF is practically undrivable during the week rush hour because people prioritize comfort over economy. So the only knob a city has is to increase expense of driving, or to make public transit more comfortable. I don’t see any humanitarian route to the latter, so I am emphatically for the former.
- epicureanideal 8y ago
  High throughput and low cost are not the only metrics that commuters care about, clearly, or else they'd be riding public transit. If you offer to PAY ME a dollar to ride on BART next to a smelly, loud homeless person for an hour, versus me PAYING $10 in gas to drive to work, I'll pick the latter without hesitation.
  - drb91 8y ago
    Well, that’s the rational consumer side of you. What about the side of you that’s a member of a community—how do you start caring about externalities?
    - epicureanideal 8y ago
      Theoretically that's what our elected officials should be dealing with. I've tried to intervene with loud or aggressive passengers before and I'll end up being the only person in 40 people on a BART car to do so, and after a couple experiences where I saw that nobody was going to back me up, I decided I should not risk my life over such things. I'd rather drive my car to work and make sure I get home to my children.
      - woolvalley 8y ago
        I agree, if elected officials want to reduce traffic, they would put barrier separated bike lanes and keep the trains clean and safe. But the bay area local governments are self-sabotaging parody where it's difficult for anything like that to get done.
YeGoblynQueenne 8y ago
>> As the GP said, there are people who are drunk, high, smelling of bodily fluids, etc. There are people who are rude, loud, etc. Excuse me, but- where does that happen? I mention in another comment that I live in a town in England, where I've never had any problems with homeless people in public transport. I also work in London, travel by rail across Europe and often use public transport in three different European countries, France, Italy and Greece. I have never noticed the kind of problem you and the GP flag up. I'm getting the feeling that it's a problem local to a very specific part of the world and by no means a global issue that has to do with the nature of public transport, in general.
- robbrown451 8y ago
  San Francisco, for one.
  - s2g 8y ago
    Seattle too. Even if they people on the bus are okay, they are still uncomfortable.
- calohorn 8y ago
  Happens in Portland also
- toomanybeersies 8y ago
  It's a problem in Melbourne. Although not as bad as America from what I've read here. Trains are mostly fine, but I won't take a bus or a tram if I can avoid it. If I can get somewhere by train or bus, and the train would be 10 minutes slower, I'll take the train. The other day on the tram I had to deal with drunk ex-con listening to his bluetooth speaker and verbally abusing a poor Asian lady to the point she had to get off the tram. I was disgusted, but I wanted my teeth to remain in my mouth, so I couldn't do anything. I've had to deal with plenty of abusive arseholes on the bus too. And even just people being noisy, like South Americans treating the bus like it's a nightclub (which I personally don't mind) or just drunk people yelling at each other because they've forgotten their inside voice. Then some people treat public transport like it's a landfill. Especially on a Friday or Saturday night, public transport will be filled with beer bottles. The drivers don't care. They sit in a little perspex box so that they can't get assaulted by the passengers and just drive the bus or the tram around.
flukus 8y ago
> If this were stopped Sorry, but that's called society and it will never be able to compete with the bubble you've built for yourself. If more people were willing too embrace society instead of hiding from it then there's a better chance of improving it.

s2g 8y ago

> How can this be true? It's hot, noisy, uncomfortable, nausea inducing, and I have to put up with people falling asleep on me or homeless people harassing me. The light rail (in Seattle) is fine, but the coverage isn't good enough.

toomanybeersies 8y ago

Trains are faster than traffic. Buses and trams are slower as they're still in traffic, and now have to stop every 500 m to pick up or drop off passengers. I'll usually take an uber if I actually need to get somewhere on time and it's not near a train station.

jacques_chester 8y ago
Exclusive bus lanes with special traffic light queue-jumping makes this a more even comparison and costs a lot less than rail.

mrep 8y ago

Maybe you can travel in peace on public transportation but my 5 foot 3 inch 110 pound girlfriend cannot. She gets constantly harassed by guys when I'm not around and some (especially the homeless) get violent about it. And to make matters worse, when you are on a bus, there isn't really anywhere you can go to get away from some creepy guy. Your stuck having to deal with that person until you get to your destination. It's so bad she refuses to use public transportation here in seattle without me due to how unsafe she feels.

u801e 8y ago

It really depends on the public transit system. For me, driving to work takes about 8 minutes. Biking to work takes about 12 minutes. Walking to work takes about 35 minutes. Taking the bus to work takes about 45 minutes (which includes one transfer).