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> One of the things that makes me sad is there is no project even remotely close comparable to Django for say Golang or Scala. Could not agree more. This is my

> One of the things that makes me sad is there is no project even remotely close comparable to Django for say Golang or Scala. Could not agree more. This is my number one reason for not moving away from Python for web stuff. > The views/template stuff is a bit dated since everyone started moving to frontend/backend services and SPAs This is certainly true for customer facing products, but for internal tools I've yet to see anything that beats the speed of development for server-side rendered basic HTML pages. 80% of the pages we have in our Django application are internal facing (we don't use the admin due to it being a poor fit for particular reasons).

mattmanser 8y ago
Personally, as a customer, the "new" way of doing it is irritating, usually somewhat broken, slow and usually unreliable. I wouldn't be surprised if non-techies couldn't give a toss if you're using a traditional MPA with a sprinkling of ajax for the bits that really need to be responsive or a total SPA. I'm beginning to suspect the only people who want a SPA are the programmers. Has anyone even got any proof that a SPA is better than a MPA in terms of customer satisfaction? It seems to have all originated from a technical need rather than a customer need. I still prefer doing most thing server-side and then sending snippets of html to update the bits on the page that need updating, occasionally using client-side view templates/JSON, depending on the case.
- toddmorey 8y ago
  I think it depends on use case, of course. Gmail, Google Slides, or Figma would be poor MPAs I’d say.
- scrollaway 8y ago
  Good SPAs are fantastic. It's just a lot of people suck when implementing them. The Serverless documentation, an SPA, blew my mind in terms of how fast and clean it is: https://serverless.com/framework/docs/ https://serverless.com/framework/docs/
  - sametmax 8y ago
    Just tested it on an edge connection in the German country side: Hacker news: - first load: 6 seconds - next loads: 3.5 seconds Serverless: - first load: 26 seconds - next loads: 7.5 seconds
  - JoachimSchipper 8y ago
    Really? Randomly clicking e.g. Providers > Azure, I see a significant loading animation (the grey lines) - likely slower than just loading a simple new page each time. (Compare e.g. https://docs.python.org/3/library/weakref.html. https://docs.python.org/3/library/weakref.html.) (Single Page Applications arguably have their place. I'm just really confused why you think this is a particularly good example.)
    - scrollaway 8y ago
      On my awful connection, serverless is as fast as HN on new pageloads, and faster than HN when navigating to cached pages. HN is my baseline for how fast a site should be.
      - OJFord 8y ago
        HN is typically how I determine no connection vs. crap connection.
      - OJFord 8y ago
        HN is typically how I determine no connection vs. crap connection. I could `ping` I suppose, but in these circumstances I'm in the browser having just signed in to the crap/not connecting AP.
    - ademarre 8y ago
      > "I see a significant loading animation (the grey lines) - likely slower than just loading a simple new page each time." You can test the difference yourself by toggling JavaScript in your browser.
  - acdha 8y ago
- danpalmer 8y ago
  I think with server side pages, you’re limited in how much you can mess it up, but very limited in how far you can take the experience. With single page apps you have to do a lot more to get back to what server side pages give you, basic browser functionality, and as a result you can end up with worse experiences. However if you’ve got the development resources it can be a far better experience and enable applications that just wouldn’t be usable or even possible on server side rendered pages.
  - deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]
  - mattmanser 8y ago
    Name me a single thing you can't do in a SPA that you can't do in a MPA with a bit of Ajax? The only thing I can conceivably think of is an offline app, but they're so rediculously niche.
- batteryhorse 8y ago
  As a programmer, I absolutely hate SPA's. I've never used a good SPA, they're always slow, and behave strangely. I much prefer the traditional way. It's the same with Electron apps. I think it's just web developers who like SPA's
  - collyw 8y ago
    Agreed, logic usually ends up scattered between the front end and the back end. You need to start using JavaScript (I much prefer Python). The Angular app I ma maintaining just now would be so much simpler if it was server side rendered, instead we have an ajax call to load contents of every dropdown....
eksemplar 8y ago
> Could not agree more. This is my number one reason for not moving away from Python for web stuff. Why would you want to move away from something that works?

mattmanser 8y ago

Personally, as a customer, the "new" way of doing it is irritating, usually somewhat broken, slow and usually unreliable. I wouldn't be surprised if non-techies couldn't give a toss if you're using a traditional MPA with a sprinkling of ajax for the bits that really need to be responsive or a total SPA. I'm beginning to suspect the only people who want a SPA are the programmers. Has anyone even got any proof that a SPA is better than a MPA in terms of customer satisfaction? It seems to have all originated from a technical need rather than a customer need. I still prefer doing most thing server-side and then sending snippets of html to update the bits on the page that need updating, occasionally using client-side view templates/JSON, depending on the case.

toddmorey 8y ago
I think it depends on use case, of course. Gmail, Google Slides, or Figma would be poor MPAs I’d say.
scrollaway 8y ago
Good SPAs are fantastic. It's just a lot of people suck when implementing them. The Serverless documentation, an SPA, blew my mind in terms of how fast and clean it is: https://serverless.com/framework/docs/ https://serverless.com/framework/docs/
- sametmax 8y ago
  Just tested it on an edge connection in the German country side: Hacker news: - first load: 6 seconds - next loads: 3.5 seconds Serverless: - first load: 26 seconds - next loads: 7.5 seconds
- JoachimSchipper 8y ago
  Really? Randomly clicking e.g. Providers > Azure, I see a significant loading animation (the grey lines) - likely slower than just loading a simple new page each time. (Compare e.g. https://docs.python.org/3/library/weakref.html. https://docs.python.org/3/library/weakref.html.) (Single Page Applications arguably have their place. I'm just really confused why you think this is a particularly good example.)
  - scrollaway 8y ago
    On my awful connection, serverless is as fast as HN on new pageloads, and faster than HN when navigating to cached pages. HN is my baseline for how fast a site should be.
    - OJFord 8y ago
      HN is typically how I determine no connection vs. crap connection.
    - OJFord 8y ago
      HN is typically how I determine no connection vs. crap connection. I could `ping` I suppose, but in these circumstances I'm in the browser having just signed in to the crap/not connecting AP.
  - ademarre 8y ago
    > "I see a significant loading animation (the grey lines) - likely slower than just loading a simple new page each time." You can test the difference yourself by toggling JavaScript in your browser.
- acdha 8y ago
danpalmer 8y ago
I think with server side pages, you’re limited in how much you can mess it up, but very limited in how far you can take the experience. With single page apps you have to do a lot more to get back to what server side pages give you, basic browser functionality, and as a result you can end up with worse experiences. However if you’ve got the development resources it can be a far better experience and enable applications that just wouldn’t be usable or even possible on server side rendered pages.
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
- mattmanser 8y ago
  Name me a single thing you can't do in a SPA that you can't do in a MPA with a bit of Ajax? The only thing I can conceivably think of is an offline app, but they're so rediculously niche.
batteryhorse 8y ago
As a programmer, I absolutely hate SPA's. I've never used a good SPA, they're always slow, and behave strangely. I much prefer the traditional way. It's the same with Electron apps. I think it's just web developers who like SPA's
- collyw 8y ago
  Agreed, logic usually ends up scattered between the front end and the back end. You need to start using JavaScript (I much prefer Python). The Angular app I ma maintaining just now would be so much simpler if it was server side rendered, instead we have an ajax call to load contents of every dropdown....

eksemplar 8y ago

> Could not agree more. This is my number one reason for not moving away from Python for web stuff. Why would you want to move away from something that works?