5 ms·

There's no way a single software dev in the States could live that close to work, in a nice part of a major city, and also be able to afford space to house and

by and0 8y ago

There's no way a single software dev in the States could live that close to work, in a nice part of a major city, and also be able to afford space to house and take care of two kids. So his story seems pretty relevant. Besides, if you're going to do software dev you typically need to be in a city to have options, so the squeeze factor is still there. I can attest to this as well; I'd much rather take the lower rent and live further out. I never even do anything in the city.

vostok 8y ago
Perhaps an average developer couldn't as the average is around $100k, but a realistically high earning one could. Consider someone who is a staff/senior staff/principal engineer at one of the usual places or someone who went through a nice exit. Forgive me if I read your comment too literally. I think that's generally the conclusion that I come to: I'm very happy being realistically rich in America, but I'd much rather be in Europe if my financial situation were average for a software developer.
- robotrout 8y ago
  $100K is a lot of money if you're not in the bay area or Seattle. People have such warped perspectives.
  - vostok 8y ago
    I intentionally used the literal average. https://www.bls.gov/ooh/computer-and-information-technology/software-developers.htm https://www.bls.gov/ooh/computer-and-information-technology/... I am not arguing that this is or isn't a lot of money. For the record, I think that it is a lot of money. It's just not enough money to live OP's lifestyle in the US.
    - robotrout 8y ago
      It's not enough money to live OP's lifestyle in the bay area. SLC was given as just one example of a city where it is.
      - vostok 8y ago
        SLC is not a nice, dense urban city in the way that Berlin is. It thus would not provide OP's lifestyle at any level of income. It is disingenuous to equate the two.
        robotrout 8y ago
        It is also disingenuous to conveniently omit the fact that Berlin, as a major German city, enjoys economic benefits gained at the expense of other EU member countries. There's no such thing as a free lunch.
        ameister14 8y ago
        Cool - Houston, then.
        TheCoelacanth 8y ago
        Is that supposed to be a joke? Houston has a similar lifestyle to Berlin?
        ameister14 8y ago
        Mid-size city, similar size and population, more affordable. Living in the city and owning your own home there with one job is completely doable, as is childcare. Usually 'lifestyle' in the context of affordability is used to describe a set of activities that cost a certain amount. Like eating out, going to the movies, having multiple cars, etc.
        TheCoelacanth 8y ago
        Houston is probably one of the least walkable cities in existence. It is nothing like Berlin.
        T2_t2 8y ago
        Name ANYWHERE like Berlin. Surely that's the question? You can't swap Berlin for anywhere, surely? It is majorly disingenuous to choose Berlin, or Rome, or London, Or Paris, or Tokyo and ask for a similar place. There is NOWHERE like these cities. There can't be. That is their unique charm.
bleezy 8y ago
I live in a 3k sqft house in Salt Lake City with a wife (who doesn't work) and a kid. I commute about 25 minutes to work, but my house is a 0.7 mile walk down a nice, sidewalked suburban street from a software engineering company with about 100 employees, good salaries, and a good reputation. In SLC it's easy for a software engineer to make 100K and support a family in a large home on a single income. We moved out here from California for this very reason. Maybe you don't consider SLC to be a 'major city', but you will probably find similar lifestyles for engineers outside of California, Boston, and New York.
- jklinger410 8y ago
  It's like the rest of the country doesn't really exist to certain people. There are SO many cities with environments that this is possible, you just have to do a little cursory research. Businesses in these cities are hiring all the time because no one thinks about them. They don't have enough Starbucks or bike lanes. So we get articles talking about "can't" when it's really "won't." Austin, Dallas, Kansas City, Des Moines, Detroit, Tampa, Miami... The list goes on and on of medium sized cities starving for dev talent without enough coworking spaces or incubators.
  - vostok 8y ago
    > It's like the rest of the country doesn't really exist to certain people. It's more that the rest of the country isn't comparable to Berlin. The cities that you listed are a great example of this. > Austin, Dallas, Kansas City, Des Moines, Detroit, Tampa, Miami... None of those are nice, dense urban cities in the way that Berlin is.
    - jklinger410 8y ago
      My goal is to tear down the premise of the title, not to compete with a bunch of commenters moving the goalpoasts farther and farther. The real issue here is that quality urban environments in America are becoming increasingly expensive to live in. If you can't afford it, but refuse to try and work to turn a medium-sized city into the city you desire, maybe you should tone down your "why our families can't afford X" rhetoric, because it's disingenuous.
cozzyd 8y ago
Seems totally doable in Chicago.
deadmetheny 8y ago
I do all of this in the Midwest. The city may not be as major as huge coastal cities but it's by no means a backwater.

by and0 8y ago

vostok 8y ago

Perhaps an average developer couldn't as the average is around $100k, but a realistically high earning one could. Consider someone who is a staff/senior staff/principal engineer at one of the usual places or someone who went through a nice exit. Forgive me if I read your comment too literally. I think that's generally the conclusion that I come to: I'm very happy being realistically rich in America, but I'd much rather be in Europe if my financial situation were average for a software developer.

robotrout 8y ago
$100K is a lot of money if you're not in the bay area or Seattle. People have such warped perspectives.
- vostok 8y ago
  I intentionally used the literal average. https://www.bls.gov/ooh/computer-and-information-technology/software-developers.htm https://www.bls.gov/ooh/computer-and-information-technology/... I am not arguing that this is or isn't a lot of money. For the record, I think that it is a lot of money. It's just not enough money to live OP's lifestyle in the US.
  - robotrout 8y ago
    It's not enough money to live OP's lifestyle in the bay area. SLC was given as just one example of a city where it is.
    - vostok 8y ago
      SLC is not a nice, dense urban city in the way that Berlin is. It thus would not provide OP's lifestyle at any level of income. It is disingenuous to equate the two.
      - robotrout 8y ago
        It is also disingenuous to conveniently omit the fact that Berlin, as a major German city, enjoys economic benefits gained at the expense of other EU member countries. There's no such thing as a free lunch.
      - ameister14 8y ago
        Cool - Houston, then.
        TheCoelacanth 8y ago
        Is that supposed to be a joke? Houston has a similar lifestyle to Berlin?
        ameister14 8y ago
        Mid-size city, similar size and population, more affordable. Living in the city and owning your own home there with one job is completely doable, as is childcare. Usually 'lifestyle' in the context of affordability is used to describe a set of activities that cost a certain amount. Like eating out, going to the movies, having multiple cars, etc.
        TheCoelacanth 8y ago
        Houston is probably one of the least walkable cities in existence. It is nothing like Berlin.
      - T2_t2 8y ago
        Name ANYWHERE like Berlin. Surely that's the question? You can't swap Berlin for anywhere, surely? It is majorly disingenuous to choose Berlin, or Rome, or London, Or Paris, or Tokyo and ask for a similar place. There is NOWHERE like these cities. There can't be. That is their unique charm.

bleezy 8y ago

I live in a 3k sqft house in Salt Lake City with a wife (who doesn't work) and a kid. I commute about 25 minutes to work, but my house is a 0.7 mile walk down a nice, sidewalked suburban street from a software engineering company with about 100 employees, good salaries, and a good reputation. In SLC it's easy for a software engineer to make 100K and support a family in a large home on a single income. We moved out here from California for this very reason. Maybe you don't consider SLC to be a 'major city', but you will probably find similar lifestyles for engineers outside of California, Boston, and New York.

jklinger410 8y ago
It's like the rest of the country doesn't really exist to certain people. There are SO many cities with environments that this is possible, you just have to do a little cursory research. Businesses in these cities are hiring all the time because no one thinks about them. They don't have enough Starbucks or bike lanes. So we get articles talking about "can't" when it's really "won't." Austin, Dallas, Kansas City, Des Moines, Detroit, Tampa, Miami... The list goes on and on of medium sized cities starving for dev talent without enough coworking spaces or incubators.
- vostok 8y ago
  > It's like the rest of the country doesn't really exist to certain people. It's more that the rest of the country isn't comparable to Berlin. The cities that you listed are a great example of this. > Austin, Dallas, Kansas City, Des Moines, Detroit, Tampa, Miami... None of those are nice, dense urban cities in the way that Berlin is.
  - jklinger410 8y ago
    My goal is to tear down the premise of the title, not to compete with a bunch of commenters moving the goalpoasts farther and farther. The real issue here is that quality urban environments in America are becoming increasingly expensive to live in. If you can't afford it, but refuse to try and work to turn a medium-sized city into the city you desire, maybe you should tone down your "why our families can't afford X" rhetoric, because it's disingenuous.

cozzyd 8y ago

Seems totally doable in Chicago.

deadmetheny 8y ago

I do all of this in the Midwest. The city may not be as major as huge coastal cities but it's by no means a backwater.