3 ms·

> all of which are impossible for one person and we haven't even gotten to code yet! impossible is a stretch. harder than it appears perhaps. If one looks at

by cat199 8y ago

> all of which are impossible for one person and we haven't even gotten to code yet! impossible is a stretch. harder than it appears perhaps. If one looks at the original unix devs, this was often the case - modify the kernel to add a new system call so that your runtime system can do X to enable your application to do Y. A true 'sysadmin' in those days was not a pure-IT person, he was an expert of the systems. It is only with the rise of binary-only systems (e.g. SunOS) and IT commercialization that a 'sysadmin' crystallized into a separate pure-IT task distinct from 'developer'. In my view, what is called 'DevOps' for the operationally focused, and 'FullStack' for the software focused, is really just a return to this mode of operation, which is what a true 'sysadmin' or 'hacker' already was since the dawn of time.

phil21 8y ago
Yep, absolutely. What folks are calling devops (wrongly or rightly) to me is simply what I considered a senior level sysadmin. The guys who can basically fix anything needed in a pinch - but guys you probably don't want designing and building large scale applications. It's been a very strange 10 years to see the title of "sysadmin" start to become "IT button pusher" and the actual skilled role turn to the title of devops.
- eropple 8y ago
  As a DevOps contractor/consultant (depending on the gig), I don't agree with that. Maybe it's just the way I approach my business, but I am also the guy you want designing and building large scale applications. Well, maybe not you, but a decent chunk of my clients do. ;) One startup-unicorn client hired me to advise on DevOps practices and implement the baseline stuff for a new project and I ended up the de facto team lead, banging out JavaScript alongside Chef, just because...it's all the same. Sometimes I write code to spit out web pages, sometimes I write code to spit out EC2 instances or Azure instances. That's what a "devops engineer" is, to me. As far as the move for the word "sysadmin"--no joke, I blame it on Windows and small- to medium-scale businesses. When for a long time the conception of a "system administrator" is "mouse-driven process-follower", a competent software developer who happens to develop systems that throw EC2 instances around just isn't going to want to be associated with that title.
  - tonyarkles 8y ago
    I'm with you on this. One of the huge advantages of having worn all of those hats is that you have pretty good experience of having seen how badly some interactions can go. I can look at a system design and point out problems that specialists miss. And on the other side of it, I'm a swiss army knife. Need someone to figure out how to get your web app talking to the crusty old COBOL app? I've got ideas on how to pull that off too...
gaius 8y ago
A true 'sysadmin' in those days was not a pure-IT person, he was an expert of the systems Back in the day these were called Systems Programmers but they’re a rare breed these days.
- dozzie 8y ago
  Yes, we are rare indeed. There's not much of a market for writing tools that work with the OS, developers usually want to stay away from the OS-provided mechanisms, like build and packaging systems, network configuration, event logging, HA tools, configuration management, and others. In my career I've seen maybe four people who can be called system programmers. It's a pity, because there's still so much to build, and it takes a system programmer to spot what ops tools to build, why, and to actually build them.
  - vram22 8y ago
    >developers usually want to stay away from the OS-provided mechanisms, like build and packaging systems, network configuration, event logging, HA tools, configuration management, and others. That's somewhat ironic, since doing development and building software tools in such areas (and system software in general) can be very interesting work: including not just the programming, but also the conceptualization, the product requirement definition, the design, seeing it in deployment and iterating to make changes, add new wanted features, etc. That has not been my main area of work, but I have some background in it, and have done some pieces here and there (small products or parts of others) and find it to be really enjoyable work. In fact, for many developers, it can be more fun than doing business domain-level development (LOB apps), or social media / consumer apps kind of stuff. I've done some work in all those 3 broad areas, hence the comment.

by cat199 8y ago

phil21 8y ago

Yep, absolutely. What folks are calling devops (wrongly or rightly) to me is simply what I considered a senior level sysadmin. The guys who can basically fix anything needed in a pinch - but guys you probably don't want designing and building large scale applications. It's been a very strange 10 years to see the title of "sysadmin" start to become "IT button pusher" and the actual skilled role turn to the title of devops.

eropple 8y ago
As a DevOps contractor/consultant (depending on the gig), I don't agree with that. Maybe it's just the way I approach my business, but I am also the guy you want designing and building large scale applications. Well, maybe not you, but a decent chunk of my clients do. ;) One startup-unicorn client hired me to advise on DevOps practices and implement the baseline stuff for a new project and I ended up the de facto team lead, banging out JavaScript alongside Chef, just because...it's all the same. Sometimes I write code to spit out web pages, sometimes I write code to spit out EC2 instances or Azure instances. That's what a "devops engineer" is, to me. As far as the move for the word "sysadmin"--no joke, I blame it on Windows and small- to medium-scale businesses. When for a long time the conception of a "system administrator" is "mouse-driven process-follower", a competent software developer who happens to develop systems that throw EC2 instances around just isn't going to want to be associated with that title.
- tonyarkles 8y ago
  I'm with you on this. One of the huge advantages of having worn all of those hats is that you have pretty good experience of having seen how badly some interactions can go. I can look at a system design and point out problems that specialists miss. And on the other side of it, I'm a swiss army knife. Need someone to figure out how to get your web app talking to the crusty old COBOL app? I've got ideas on how to pull that off too...

gaius 8y ago

A true 'sysadmin' in those days was not a pure-IT person, he was an expert of the systems Back in the day these were called Systems Programmers but they’re a rare breed these days.

dozzie 8y ago
Yes, we are rare indeed. There's not much of a market for writing tools that work with the OS, developers usually want to stay away from the OS-provided mechanisms, like build and packaging systems, network configuration, event logging, HA tools, configuration management, and others. In my career I've seen maybe four people who can be called system programmers. It's a pity, because there's still so much to build, and it takes a system programmer to spot what ops tools to build, why, and to actually build them.
- vram22 8y ago
  >developers usually want to stay away from the OS-provided mechanisms, like build and packaging systems, network configuration, event logging, HA tools, configuration management, and others. That's somewhat ironic, since doing development and building software tools in such areas (and system software in general) can be very interesting work: including not just the programming, but also the conceptualization, the product requirement definition, the design, seeing it in deployment and iterating to make changes, add new wanted features, etc. That has not been my main area of work, but I have some background in it, and have done some pieces here and there (small products or parts of others) and find it to be really enjoyable work. In fact, for many developers, it can be more fun than doing business domain-level development (LOB apps), or social media / consumer apps kind of stuff. I've done some work in all those 3 broad areas, hence the comment.