5 ms·

To be fair, it's the combination of DevOps done wrong and Full Stack done wrong that will cause interminable chaos. Like "Agile," it's the given manager and te

by mikece 8y ago

To be fair, it's the combination of DevOps done wrong and Full Stack done wrong that will cause interminable chaos. Like "Agile," it's the given manager and team's understanding and method of implementing DevOps and Full Stack that are the issue. The term "Full Stack Developer" is especially problematic because taken at it's literal meaning it suggests that a developer should be fully competent at ALL aspects of developing an application, which necessarily include deep understanding of system administration, database administration, tertiary dependency (caching apps like Redis, for example) administration, network infrastructure configuration and maintenance -- all of which are impossible for one person and we haven't even gotten to code yet! I think a different term needs to be coined which implies variability until defined at a given shop. I propose "Wide Area of Responsibility (AOR) Developer" which, for Acme Corp, might mean "Is competent in writing server-side REST endpoints AND managing development/production database schemas AND load balancing traffic to production web servers" whereas at XYZ LLC it might mean "Can develop UX designs in Sketch to customer specs and then code them with HTML, CSS, and a JavaScript framework along with writing the REST endpoints into which back-end developers will connect business logic from myriad systems based on the contract the 'Full Stack Devs' specified for the needs of the UI." Just a thought.

vkjv 8y ago
> "A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects." -Robert A. Heinlein
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
- 6DM 8y ago
  A human being is capable of all of these. Very few actually could. Even less could do all of them well.
- no1youknowz 8y ago
  Human 1.0 - Humans now. A common single entity can't do that. Human 2.0 - Sure, why not! :)
- learc83 8y ago
  Remember that in-universe those words were spoken by an arrogant super human who was hundreds of years old.
- seorphates 8y ago
  I mean, I got 17 out of 21. Subhuman? I see nothing about having to do any of those well, either, so I may human, yet. It's that last one I may have some trouble with. I think I'd much rather sleep through it. I think.
cat199 8y ago
> all of which are impossible for one person and we haven't even gotten to code yet! impossible is a stretch. harder than it appears perhaps. If one looks at the original unix devs, this was often the case - modify the kernel to add a new system call so that your runtime system can do X to enable your application to do Y. A true 'sysadmin' in those days was not a pure-IT person, he was an expert of the systems. It is only with the rise of binary-only systems (e.g. SunOS) and IT commercialization that a 'sysadmin' crystallized into a separate pure-IT task distinct from 'developer'. In my view, what is called 'DevOps' for the operationally focused, and 'FullStack' for the software focused, is really just a return to this mode of operation, which is what a true 'sysadmin' or 'hacker' already was since the dawn of time.
- phil21 8y ago
  Yep, absolutely. What folks are calling devops (wrongly or rightly) to me is simply what I considered a senior level sysadmin. The guys who can basically fix anything needed in a pinch - but guys you probably don't want designing and building large scale applications. It's been a very strange 10 years to see the title of "sysadmin" start to become "IT button pusher" and the actual skilled role turn to the title of devops.
  - eropple 8y ago
    As a DevOps contractor/consultant (depending on the gig), I don't agree with that. Maybe it's just the way I approach my business, but I am also the guy you want designing and building large scale applications. Well, maybe not you, but a decent chunk of my clients do. ;) One startup-unicorn client hired me to advise on DevOps practices and implement the baseline stuff for a new project and I ended up the de facto team lead, banging out JavaScript alongside Chef, just because...it's all the same. Sometimes I write code to spit out web pages, sometimes I write code to spit out EC2 instances or Azure instances. That's what a "devops engineer" is, to me. As far as the move for the word "sysadmin"--no joke, I blame it on Windows and small- to medium-scale businesses. When for a long time the conception of a "system administrator" is "mouse-driven process-follower", a competent software developer who happens to develop systems that throw EC2 instances around just isn't going to want to be associated with that title.
rootusrootus 8y ago
Interesting. I had never considered full stack to reach into the operations space. I always figured it meant development all the way from the server code to the front-end UI, but it was still 100% confined to code and not the operational aspects of keeping the application running.
- talmand 8y ago
  My thoughts on full-stack is like your thought. It's a developer position. Once you start throwing in tasks that include the word "administration" in the description then that's likely a different job for a different person.
  - akvadrako 8y ago
    I agree that full-stack doesn't include ops and furthermore, it only refers to web developers. I usually use the phrases Programmer / Operator and Computing Engineer to encompass the whole shebang.
  - smcameron 8y ago
    Hell, I thought "full stack" meant all the way down into OS drivers, and ability to debug damn near anything.
    - busterarm 8y ago
      Same and that ends up being in the operations wheelhouse. < Dev who does Operations full time but is not "DevOps"
    - deleted 8y ago
      [deleted]
    - tonyarkles 8y ago
      I joke that I'm a "full full stack" developer. Writing JS (bare, or in a framework like React or Angular or whatever), backend (Python, Elixir, Go, Ruby, etc...), install the OS or design cloud infrastructure, attach GDB or ptrace to processes if they're misbehaving, use tcpdump to watch packet flows, program kernel drivers, put together a toolchain and JTAG for microcontrollers, and design schematics & board layouts (analog or digital, not great at RF... yet).
forgottenpass 8y ago
>done wrong Let me pose a rhetorical question: Why have all the hot trends in software project process/management for the last 10 years been so risk-prone to being "done wrong"?
- fixermark 8y ago
  Because if doing it right were easy, everyone would already be doing it and it wouldn't be a named process or methodology.
- betenoire 8y ago
  My take is incentives. "No one gets fired for choosing IBM". Good question
scarface74 8y ago
The term "Full Stack Developer" is especially problematic because taken at it's literal meaning it suggests that a developer should be fully competent at ALL aspects of developing an application, which necessarily include deep understanding of system administration, database administration, tertiary dependency (caching apps like Redis, for example) administration, network infrastructure configuration and maintenance -- all of which are impossible for one person Why is that impossible especially in the age of cloud? Infrastructure setup and configuration is just another API. My knowledge of the full stack may not be wide, but it’s fairly deep. If you tell me I have to design and implement a full web application from scratch with no preexisting infrastructure, I can choose a pretty good set of technologies and best practices to get it done as a cloud hosted implementation all the way from net ops, dev ops (CI/CD), backend RDMS or NoSQL storage, a modern server side language, a web server, and a website. The only part that would be wanting is the website implementation would be a simplistic Bootstrap UI without any modern front end frameworks. The best I could do right now would be either ASP.Net MVC or Jquery + handlebars. But not knowing a front end framework well enough is just because of lack of time to learn and that’s not what I’m concentrating on now. As the size of the project grew, I would need to bring in specialists for the web (that’s not my forte) and devops (it would be a waste of my time to manage devops/netops) at scale.
- falcolas 8y ago
  You could consider it to be another API - like that provided by AWS. An API with hundreds to thousands of endpoints, and each endpoint can have several dozen endpoint-specific arguments. An API that evolves over time, that you need to keep on top of. And an API which, like all forms of abstraction, falls apart at the seams. There are still networks, interfaces, operating systems, files, cron jobs, sockets, flow logs, ACLs, security holes, and so forth. Do you, as a developer, want to spend all the time required to keep up with that API? To be the one expected to fill the gaps when the abstraction falls apart? Or do you want to hire someone to take care of that for you?
  - scarface74 8y ago
    You don’t just consider it an API, it is an API. No matter how you are using AWS - via the console, cloud formation templates, the cli, the various SDKs, etc. It all boils down to an API call. I don’t want to have to be the only one, but I like having both the knowledge and the access not to have to wait on someone else. I gave up a job as an architect with so much red tape I couldn’t get anything done at a large company to be a senior developer at a small company where from day one I was given admin access to AWS (yes I have the skill set and the certifications for what they are worth).
pjc50 8y ago
> "Wide Area of Responsibility (AOR) Developer" This is a necessity in small organisations and a problem in large ones. A problem because they have to have all the keys, like a janitor; and they tend to end up being treated as either janitors or dictators by the rest of the company. Also tends to have a high "bus factor". (I semi-jokingly have "Full Stack From the Transistors Upwards" written on my CV, because I have at one time or another in the course of employment done everything from chip design to web design; that doesn't mean I'd be happy to do all of them at once.)
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]

by mikece 8y ago

vkjv 8y ago

> "A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects." -Robert A. Heinlein

deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
6DM 8y ago
A human being is capable of all of these. Very few actually could. Even less could do all of them well.
no1youknowz 8y ago
Human 1.0 - Humans now. A common single entity can't do that. Human 2.0 - Sure, why not! :)
learc83 8y ago
Remember that in-universe those words were spoken by an arrogant super human who was hundreds of years old.
seorphates 8y ago
I mean, I got 17 out of 21. Subhuman? I see nothing about having to do any of those well, either, so I may human, yet. It's that last one I may have some trouble with. I think I'd much rather sleep through it. I think.

cat199 8y ago

> all of which are impossible for one person and we haven't even gotten to code yet! impossible is a stretch. harder than it appears perhaps. If one looks at the original unix devs, this was often the case - modify the kernel to add a new system call so that your runtime system can do X to enable your application to do Y. A true 'sysadmin' in those days was not a pure-IT person, he was an expert of the systems. It is only with the rise of binary-only systems (e.g. SunOS) and IT commercialization that a 'sysadmin' crystallized into a separate pure-IT task distinct from 'developer'. In my view, what is called 'DevOps' for the operationally focused, and 'FullStack' for the software focused, is really just a return to this mode of operation, which is what a true 'sysadmin' or 'hacker' already was since the dawn of time.

phil21 8y ago
Yep, absolutely. What folks are calling devops (wrongly or rightly) to me is simply what I considered a senior level sysadmin. The guys who can basically fix anything needed in a pinch - but guys you probably don't want designing and building large scale applications. It's been a very strange 10 years to see the title of "sysadmin" start to become "IT button pusher" and the actual skilled role turn to the title of devops.
- eropple 8y ago
  As a DevOps contractor/consultant (depending on the gig), I don't agree with that. Maybe it's just the way I approach my business, but I am also the guy you want designing and building large scale applications. Well, maybe not you, but a decent chunk of my clients do. ;) One startup-unicorn client hired me to advise on DevOps practices and implement the baseline stuff for a new project and I ended up the de facto team lead, banging out JavaScript alongside Chef, just because...it's all the same. Sometimes I write code to spit out web pages, sometimes I write code to spit out EC2 instances or Azure instances. That's what a "devops engineer" is, to me. As far as the move for the word "sysadmin"--no joke, I blame it on Windows and small- to medium-scale businesses. When for a long time the conception of a "system administrator" is "mouse-driven process-follower", a competent software developer who happens to develop systems that throw EC2 instances around just isn't going to want to be associated with that title.

rootusrootus 8y ago

Interesting. I had never considered full stack to reach into the operations space. I always figured it meant development all the way from the server code to the front-end UI, but it was still 100% confined to code and not the operational aspects of keeping the application running.

talmand 8y ago
My thoughts on full-stack is like your thought. It's a developer position. Once you start throwing in tasks that include the word "administration" in the description then that's likely a different job for a different person.
- akvadrako 8y ago
  I agree that full-stack doesn't include ops and furthermore, it only refers to web developers. I usually use the phrases Programmer / Operator and Computing Engineer to encompass the whole shebang.
- smcameron 8y ago
  Hell, I thought "full stack" meant all the way down into OS drivers, and ability to debug damn near anything.
  - busterarm 8y ago
    Same and that ends up being in the operations wheelhouse. < Dev who does Operations full time but is not "DevOps"
  - deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]
  - tonyarkles 8y ago
    I joke that I'm a "full full stack" developer. Writing JS (bare, or in a framework like React or Angular or whatever), backend (Python, Elixir, Go, Ruby, etc...), install the OS or design cloud infrastructure, attach GDB or ptrace to processes if they're misbehaving, use tcpdump to watch packet flows, program kernel drivers, put together a toolchain and JTAG for microcontrollers, and design schematics & board layouts (analog or digital, not great at RF... yet).

forgottenpass 8y ago

>done wrong Let me pose a rhetorical question: Why have all the hot trends in software project process/management for the last 10 years been so risk-prone to being "done wrong"?

fixermark 8y ago
Because if doing it right were easy, everyone would already be doing it and it wouldn't be a named process or methodology.
betenoire 8y ago
My take is incentives. "No one gets fired for choosing IBM". Good question

scarface74 8y ago

The term "Full Stack Developer" is especially problematic because taken at it's literal meaning it suggests that a developer should be fully competent at ALL aspects of developing an application, which necessarily include deep understanding of system administration, database administration, tertiary dependency (caching apps like Redis, for example) administration, network infrastructure configuration and maintenance -- all of which are impossible for one person Why is that impossible especially in the age of cloud? Infrastructure setup and configuration is just another API. My knowledge of the full stack may not be wide, but it’s fairly deep. If you tell me I have to design and implement a full web application from scratch with no preexisting infrastructure, I can choose a pretty good set of technologies and best practices to get it done as a cloud hosted implementation all the way from net ops, dev ops (CI/CD), backend RDMS or NoSQL storage, a modern server side language, a web server, and a website. The only part that would be wanting is the website implementation would be a simplistic Bootstrap UI without any modern front end frameworks. The best I could do right now would be either ASP.Net MVC or Jquery + handlebars. But not knowing a front end framework well enough is just because of lack of time to learn and that’s not what I’m concentrating on now. As the size of the project grew, I would need to bring in specialists for the web (that’s not my forte) and devops (it would be a waste of my time to manage devops/netops) at scale.

falcolas 8y ago
You could consider it to be another API - like that provided by AWS. An API with hundreds to thousands of endpoints, and each endpoint can have several dozen endpoint-specific arguments. An API that evolves over time, that you need to keep on top of. And an API which, like all forms of abstraction, falls apart at the seams. There are still networks, interfaces, operating systems, files, cron jobs, sockets, flow logs, ACLs, security holes, and so forth. Do you, as a developer, want to spend all the time required to keep up with that API? To be the one expected to fill the gaps when the abstraction falls apart? Or do you want to hire someone to take care of that for you?
- scarface74 8y ago
  You don’t just consider it an API, it is an API. No matter how you are using AWS - via the console, cloud formation templates, the cli, the various SDKs, etc. It all boils down to an API call. I don’t want to have to be the only one, but I like having both the knowledge and the access not to have to wait on someone else. I gave up a job as an architect with so much red tape I couldn’t get anything done at a large company to be a senior developer at a small company where from day one I was given admin access to AWS (yes I have the skill set and the certifications for what they are worth).

pjc50 8y ago

> "Wide Area of Responsibility (AOR) Developer" This is a necessity in small organisations and a problem in large ones. A problem because they have to have all the keys, like a janitor; and they tend to end up being treated as either janitors or dictators by the rest of the company. Also tends to have a high "bus factor". (I semi-jokingly have "Full Stack From the Transistors Upwards" written on my CV, because I have at one time or another in the course of employment done everything from chip design to web design; that doesn't mean I'd be happy to do all of them at once.)

deleted 8y ago
[deleted]