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This raises two questions in my mind: I admittedly come from a very privileged background (in terms of both an upper-middle-class family and genetics), but how

This raises two questions in my mind: I admittedly come from a very privileged background (in terms of both an upper-middle-class family and genetics), but how have so many people found themselves in places where it's so hard to make ends meet? My parents paid for college (like I said, admittedly privileged) and the State of North Carolina actually gave me free tuition and paid me a stipend to get my Master's degree (free/cheap government education is a benefit which you don't have to be privileged to get, at least not as privileged). I chose the "wrong" programs from a job prospects / earnings perspective - Sociology and Public Administration. I still managed to fall into a career as a data scientist. I'm not paid a bay-area salary, but then the suburbs of Raleigh/Durham don't have a bay-area cost of living either. My wife and I have a bigger house than we need, drive two old (2005 & 2009) but functional cars, have two kids, take a reasonably nice week-long vacation each year, and give quite a bit away, all on one salary. We've both made sacrifices to be debt free other than the mortgage, which helps. Most of my close friends went to very reasonably-priced state schools (e.g., NC State University), got the "right" degrees, and are now gainfully employed and able to support a family. Do I just live in that much of a bubble? Are my and my friends' experiences really that out of the ordinary in America in 2018? Second, is it just because I'm young? This article suggests a lot of programmers/engineers end up being un-hireable by middle age, and struggle to find another career to make ends meet. Does that match the experience of a lot of folks here? From my perspective, most of the middle aged programmers/engineers I know have just moved on to become software architects, managers of development teams, CTOs, consultants, etc. - in other words, they're doing even more lucrative work facilitated by their years of experience.

RubenSandwich 8y ago
I'm sorry but you do live in a bubble. Here is a UN report on poverty and rising inequality in the USA: https://digitallibrary.un.org/record/1629536/files/A_HRC_38_33_Add-1-EN.pdf https://digitallibrary.un.org/record/1629536/files/A_HRC_38_.... Here are a few notes from the report: * In September 2017, more than one in every eight Americans were living in poverty (40 million, equal to 12.7% of the population). And almost half of those (18.5 million) were living in deep poverty, with reported family income below one-half of the poverty threshold. * In the OECD the US ranks 35th out of 37 in terms of poverty and inequality. * The youth poverty rate in the United States is the highest across the OECD with one quarter of youth living in poverty compared to less than 14% across the OECD. * US healthcare expenditures per capita are double the OECD average and much higher than in all other countries. But there are many fewer doctors and hospital beds per person than the OECD average. * The Stanford Center on Inequality and Poverty ranks the most well-off countries in terms of labor markets, poverty, safety net, wealth inequality, and economic mobility. The US comes in last of the top 10 most well-off countries, and 18th amongst the top 21. * According to the World Income Inequality Database, the US has the highest Gini rate (measuring inequality) of all Western Countries The truth is poverty and inequality is uncomfortable and pushed to the edges of society.
- dbatten 8y ago
  I don't disagree with any of this being a reality, so thanks for the post. At the same time, I'm not sure it quite addresses what the New York Times piece was getting at, or what I was trying to get at. (Sorry if I was being unclear.) Most of the UN stats are about poverty and inequality. But the NYT piece wasn't talking about poverty, and I don't deny that there's a small portion of the population stuck in a trap of cyclical poverty - I can see that every day. I also don't deny that inequality has been rising - every time I see a news update on Jeff Bezos' wealth, I'm reminded that his net worth is going up _way_ faster than mine is. But what the NYT piece (slash the book it was summarizing) was _actually_ focused on was a changing experience for the American middle class - the Americans that aren't stuck in poverty, but also aren't the rich. The author was arguing that there's been a shift in the middle class experience... that you can now grow up in the middle class, do all the "right" things career-wise, and still find yourself struggling to make ends meet and keep up the standard of living associated with a middle class lifestyle. All I'm saying is that, in the experience of me and my friends, that doesn't seem to be representative of middle class America over the last 10-20 years. Sure, I don't live in a McMansion and drive a nice new car, so maybe I don't define the middle class lifestyle as aspirationally as some people do. But the vast majority of middle class people I know seem to be finding it relatively straightforward to get an education, find a job that pays reasonably well, and start a family, without struggling to pay the bills.
  - germinalphrase 8y ago
    Perhaps you’re simply in a generally more prosperous part of the country. It’s all anecdotes, I know, but I know a very many people who have gone down a similar path - graduating well from a state college/university - and struggle to find stable, family-supporting employment where I grew up in/near Madison, WI. A lot of them are working in service jobs which are definitively low paying and often unstable. I also see a worrisome level of cynicism more generally: with the exception of entertainment, things are not getting better and the corruption of our business/political class will only continue to screw us.
- frockington 8y ago
  I don't understand the inclusion of wealth inequality stats. How do rich people making more money affect the "average" American? The idea of forcing an upper limit on wealth is the exact opposite of the American system.
leetcrew 8y ago
personally i think the situation is fairly exaggerated. anyone who gets through an undergrad program in CS can probably live like you if they are smart about debt and adjust their expectations (ie, not living it up in NYC/SF). that said, the main thing that gets people is educating their children. a lot of highly desirable places to live as a single person or young couple have pretty bad public school options. the places with good public schools are genuinely expensive in a lot of locales. take a look at home prices in areas around you with good schools and/or look at private school tuitions and you might see how professionals with kids can start to get squeezed.
- JKCalhoun 8y ago
  > anyone who gets through an undergrad program in CS Yeah.
  - leetcrew 8y ago
    not sure whether you are calling my original claim naive or that i imply getting an undergrad degree is an attainable goal.
severine 8y ago
LOL. Yes and yes, but mainly it's your privileged genetics. Lo que hay que oír...
- mbroncano 8y ago
  Which also seems to pretty much indicate where root of this issue lies ...
justin66 8y ago
> the State of North Carolina actually gave me free tuition and paid me a stipend to get my Master's degree (free/cheap government education is a benefit which you don't have to be privileged to get, at least not as privileged). If having your advanced education paid for doesn't make you "privileged" you might as well stop using the word since it no longer has any meaning. I mean, seriously.
- PurpleBoxDragon 8y ago
  Is a kid who studies and gets all A's in class privileged with getting the reward for all A's? Generally the idea of privilege is dealing with something you didn't work for. Having your parents pay for college? Privilege. Earning a scholarship anyone can earn? Not privilege. The issue is with privilege that impacts what you can earn, but compared to someone born with a mental disability due to lack of nutrition while developing (or maternal drug abuse in pregnancy, etc.), everyone born healthy is privileged by a great deal.
  - JKCalhoun 8y ago
    I would say going to school at a time when free tuition was a thing is the privilege. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think that still happens.
  - Loulybob 8y ago
    A kid getting good results can be a result of privilege. If their parents can afford to live in a good area with good schools then they're going to get a better education. Additionally, I know this is UK and not US, but it does bring up other factors that economic factors can have on kid's performance: https://www.gov.uk/government/news/socio-economic-influences-on-childrens-life-chances https://www.gov.uk/government/news/socio-economic-influences...
  - justin66 8y ago
    > Generally the idea of privilege is dealing with something you didn't work for. I'd rather depend on the dictionary definition which is more subtle and less judgmental, but I'm aware that it's become a rather loaded term recently. (A special right, advantage, or immunity granted or available only to a particular person or group.) > Is a kid who studies and gets all A's in class privileged with getting the reward for all A's? Overwhelmingly the answer is yes. Children who come from a privileged background tend to make better grades as a rule, and the privilege continues from there. There is no need to get defensive about it or guilt-ridden, either, if you're one of the people in that position. (what, I'm supposed to perform badly so others can catch up?) It is just useful to recognize what is happening. If nothing else this kind of awareness prevents people from having to ask questions like "Do I just live in that much of a bubble?" Well, yes. > Earning a scholarship anyone can earn? Not privilege. It wouldn't be a scholarship if anyone could earn it. No organization that awards scholarships awards them to all applicants performing above a certain objective threshold, as far as I know. It's a contest with winners, and the winners enjoy a certain privilege. There's nothing inherently wrong with that. (although it might be a big-picture problem if there aren't enough scholarships to go around, if increased credentialism requires too many people to win that particular lottery, etc. etc.)

RubenSandwich 8y ago

I'm sorry but you do live in a bubble. Here is a UN report on poverty and rising inequality in the USA: https://digitallibrary.un.org/record/1629536/files/A_HRC_38_33_Add-1-EN.pdf https://digitallibrary.un.org/record/1629536/files/A_HRC_38_.... Here are a few notes from the report: * In September 2017, more than one in every eight Americans were living in poverty (40 million, equal to 12.7% of the population). And almost half of those (18.5 million) were living in deep poverty, with reported family income below one-half of the poverty threshold. * In the OECD the US ranks 35th out of 37 in terms of poverty and inequality. * The youth poverty rate in the United States is the highest across the OECD with one quarter of youth living in poverty compared to less than 14% across the OECD. * US healthcare expenditures per capita are double the OECD average and much higher than in all other countries. But there are many fewer doctors and hospital beds per person than the OECD average. * The Stanford Center on Inequality and Poverty ranks the most well-off countries in terms of labor markets, poverty, safety net, wealth inequality, and economic mobility. The US comes in last of the top 10 most well-off countries, and 18th amongst the top 21. * According to the World Income Inequality Database, the US has the highest Gini rate (measuring inequality) of all Western Countries The truth is poverty and inequality is uncomfortable and pushed to the edges of society.

dbatten 8y ago
I don't disagree with any of this being a reality, so thanks for the post. At the same time, I'm not sure it quite addresses what the New York Times piece was getting at, or what I was trying to get at. (Sorry if I was being unclear.) Most of the UN stats are about poverty and inequality. But the NYT piece wasn't talking about poverty, and I don't deny that there's a small portion of the population stuck in a trap of cyclical poverty - I can see that every day. I also don't deny that inequality has been rising - every time I see a news update on Jeff Bezos' wealth, I'm reminded that his net worth is going up _way_ faster than mine is. But what the NYT piece (slash the book it was summarizing) was _actually_ focused on was a changing experience for the American middle class - the Americans that aren't stuck in poverty, but also aren't the rich. The author was arguing that there's been a shift in the middle class experience... that you can now grow up in the middle class, do all the "right" things career-wise, and still find yourself struggling to make ends meet and keep up the standard of living associated with a middle class lifestyle. All I'm saying is that, in the experience of me and my friends, that doesn't seem to be representative of middle class America over the last 10-20 years. Sure, I don't live in a McMansion and drive a nice new car, so maybe I don't define the middle class lifestyle as aspirationally as some people do. But the vast majority of middle class people I know seem to be finding it relatively straightforward to get an education, find a job that pays reasonably well, and start a family, without struggling to pay the bills.
- germinalphrase 8y ago
  Perhaps you’re simply in a generally more prosperous part of the country. It’s all anecdotes, I know, but I know a very many people who have gone down a similar path - graduating well from a state college/university - and struggle to find stable, family-supporting employment where I grew up in/near Madison, WI. A lot of them are working in service jobs which are definitively low paying and often unstable. I also see a worrisome level of cynicism more generally: with the exception of entertainment, things are not getting better and the corruption of our business/political class will only continue to screw us.
frockington 8y ago
I don't understand the inclusion of wealth inequality stats. How do rich people making more money affect the "average" American? The idea of forcing an upper limit on wealth is the exact opposite of the American system.

leetcrew 8y ago

personally i think the situation is fairly exaggerated. anyone who gets through an undergrad program in CS can probably live like you if they are smart about debt and adjust their expectations (ie, not living it up in NYC/SF). that said, the main thing that gets people is educating their children. a lot of highly desirable places to live as a single person or young couple have pretty bad public school options. the places with good public schools are genuinely expensive in a lot of locales. take a look at home prices in areas around you with good schools and/or look at private school tuitions and you might see how professionals with kids can start to get squeezed.

JKCalhoun 8y ago
> anyone who gets through an undergrad program in CS Yeah.
- leetcrew 8y ago
  not sure whether you are calling my original claim naive or that i imply getting an undergrad degree is an attainable goal.

severine 8y ago

LOL. Yes and yes, but mainly it's your privileged genetics. Lo que hay que oír...

mbroncano 8y ago
Which also seems to pretty much indicate where root of this issue lies ...

justin66 8y ago

> the State of North Carolina actually gave me free tuition and paid me a stipend to get my Master's degree (free/cheap government education is a benefit which you don't have to be privileged to get, at least not as privileged). If having your advanced education paid for doesn't make you "privileged" you might as well stop using the word since it no longer has any meaning. I mean, seriously.

PurpleBoxDragon 8y ago
Is a kid who studies and gets all A's in class privileged with getting the reward for all A's? Generally the idea of privilege is dealing with something you didn't work for. Having your parents pay for college? Privilege. Earning a scholarship anyone can earn? Not privilege. The issue is with privilege that impacts what you can earn, but compared to someone born with a mental disability due to lack of nutrition while developing (or maternal drug abuse in pregnancy, etc.), everyone born healthy is privileged by a great deal.
- JKCalhoun 8y ago
  I would say going to school at a time when free tuition was a thing is the privilege. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think that still happens.
- Loulybob 8y ago
  A kid getting good results can be a result of privilege. If their parents can afford to live in a good area with good schools then they're going to get a better education. Additionally, I know this is UK and not US, but it does bring up other factors that economic factors can have on kid's performance: https://www.gov.uk/government/news/socio-economic-influences-on-childrens-life-chances https://www.gov.uk/government/news/socio-economic-influences...
- justin66 8y ago
  > Generally the idea of privilege is dealing with something you didn't work for. I'd rather depend on the dictionary definition which is more subtle and less judgmental, but I'm aware that it's become a rather loaded term recently. (A special right, advantage, or immunity granted or available only to a particular person or group.) > Is a kid who studies and gets all A's in class privileged with getting the reward for all A's? Overwhelmingly the answer is yes. Children who come from a privileged background tend to make better grades as a rule, and the privilege continues from there. There is no need to get defensive about it or guilt-ridden, either, if you're one of the people in that position. (what, I'm supposed to perform badly so others can catch up?) It is just useful to recognize what is happening. If nothing else this kind of awareness prevents people from having to ask questions like "Do I just live in that much of a bubble?" Well, yes. > Earning a scholarship anyone can earn? Not privilege. It wouldn't be a scholarship if anyone could earn it. No organization that awards scholarships awards them to all applicants performing above a certain objective threshold, as far as I know. It's a contest with winners, and the winners enjoy a certain privilege. There's nothing inherently wrong with that. (although it might be a big-picture problem if there aren't enough scholarships to go around, if increased credentialism requires too many people to win that particular lottery, etc. etc.)