18 ms·

My college has used TurnItIn for (at least) a few years now. At least, some departments do. I've only had to take one class that used it, Introduction to Psycho

by Zev 16y ago

My college has used TurnItIn for (at least) a few years now. At least, some departments do. I've only had to take one class that used it, Introduction to Psychology. I went and spoke to the professor about this, asking if I could email her the paper, rather than using this service. She said that if it was up to her, I could but it wasn't and I would have to talk to the head of the department. I went and spoke to the head of the department and she accused me of wanting to cheat, due to my objections to the policy. I pointed out that I objected to the service keeping the rights to my paper to use for checking against anyone else's paper. She all but said that she didn't care and that my choices were to use the service or to fail the class -- it was too late in the semester to drop the class without approval from the dean. I ended up using the service, I was a freshman and didn't want to fail the class. Especially not so late in the semester. At the top of each paper was a notice saying that the work was copyrighted to myself and that I didn't give TurnItIn permission to use it. I doubt the service noticed, it is automated, after all. I've since made a point to ask every professor in a class where I would have to write a paper if the department uses such a service. They've all said basically the same thing: "We don't use that service, don't worry," and one even mentioned the concerns I had as a reason why they didn't want to use it either.

kenjackson 16y ago
What is your concern with TurnItIn using your paper? Is it just some arbitrary thing you have against the service or were you caught cheating with it in the past or something else? Just seems random to me.
- Zev 16y ago
  Just to get this out of the way: I would rather fail a class than cheat. We don't know each other, so you might not believe me. But, thats my personal belief. This dislike isn't arbitrary. My problem is that I wrote the paper. I don't want a third party to be able to use it to their own monetary gain without my permission. Being forced to do so left a bad taste in my mouth. When I tried to get in touch with TurnItIn to express my concerns, I didn't receive any response. I can see the counterargument in your head already -- "But you use Google, don't you? How about Amazon and hundreds of other services that keep information about you." To which, I respond that I'm not signed into Google (prefer Bing or Duck Duck Go, at that) do not use Facebook and find Amazon's recommendations useful enough that it doesn't bother me. And I chose to use the rest of the services. These companies also make their privacy policy and what they do with the information clear. With TurnItIn, the privacy issue wasn't clear when I looked. Would they ever sell the database? If they did, would they make a reasonable effort to protect my information? I was turning in a paper with my name and email address on it, after all. Tied directly to my college information, at that.
  - kenjackson 16y ago
    "I don't want a third party to be able to use it to their own monetary gain without my permission." While I can appreciate the sentiment, that's not the law. I think Fair Use must apply when we're the content providers, just as much as when its Viacom. With that said, your approach is probably the right one for you: avoid classes/teachers that use it. Personally, I don't mind, although anyone who would actually copy one of my papers has bigger academic problems than plagiarism.
    - Zev 16y ago
      My (non-lawyer) understanding is that fair use doesn't apply because this is a for-profit situations.
      - kenjackson 16y ago
        That's not true. Wikipedia lists this under "Common Misunderstandings" of Fair Use: "If you're selling for profit, it's not fair use. While commercial copying for profit work may make it harder to qualify as fair use, it does not make it impossible. For instance, in the 2 Live Crew Oh, Pretty Woman case, it was ruled that commercial parody can be fair use." Companies like Kinko's also operate under Fair Use (when you're making a copy of a page from a book).
        Zev 16y ago
        Keeping an exact and full copy of my work without any modifications pretty much rules out the possibility of a parody. And TurnItIn isn't doing any sort of creative work with it (musical or otherwise). Unless you're saying my work is a parody of itself? In which case, its still my work. And they're still not doing any creative work with it. An algorithm can be creative, but applying it over and over is not.
        kenjackson 16y ago
        Federal Appeals Court Judges, who know US law pretty well, disagree with your assessment of US law: http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/news/2009/04/headline-here.ars http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/news/2009/04/headline-her... And it was unanimous.
enjo 16y ago
What ownership claims does the service take over your work? Is it simply to hold a copy to check for future plagiarism, or is it some larger copyright claim? My wife employs some rudimentary checks for cheating in her classes (accounting). Simply checking the author field in excel documents turns up a cheating rate in the 15% range. I'm actually rather shocked (and alarmed) that so few professors apparently choose to use these services. They absolutely should. As a student, I'd demand that they do. After all, kids coasting through college only serve to damage your degree.
- Zev 16y ago
  As to what the service does, please see my response to kenjackson for a bit more on this: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1741731 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1741731 I dislike the accusation and assumption that I'm going to cheat. I resent the fact that by voicing an opinion on the matter, I was accused of having a desire to cheat. I loathe being accused of lying because of someone else's actions. Especially when I've never met, encountered or so much as heard of this person before. And in my experience, using TurnItIn implies all of the above. When it came to talking about the paper and research, every professor started off by talking about academic trust, don't plagiarize and so on. It seems hollow to follow that with "Okay. Now that thats said, I don't personally believe any of it. I think that you're all liars and cheats. So, you have to use this service."
  - kenjackson 16y ago
    No one is accusing you of cheating. Do you refuse to let professors grade your papers, because if they do they're implying that you have gotten every question wrong? And any professor who talks about academic trust is someone you should avoid, because they're lying. Part of academia is about verification and refutation. If you can't validate work, you don't believe it. Now it may be the case that you choose not to validate it, maybe due to trust of the author, but that trust has been gained not something granted to all academics.
    - Zev 16y ago
      No one is accusing you of cheating. Do you refuse to let professors grade your papers, because if they do they're implying that you have gotten every question wrong? Well, the head of the department all but accused me of cheating because I went and spoke to her about the use of TurnItIn. If I had to guess, I'd say that the only reason she didn't do so outright was because I hadn't turned in (or written, at that) anything yet. Nor is it like I refused to have my work graded; I tried to find alternate methods of handing my work in. And any professor who talks about academic trust is someone you should avoid, because they're lying. Part of academia is about verification and refutation. If you can't validate work, you don't believe it. Now it may be the case that you choose not to validate it, maybe due to trust of the author, but that trust has been gained not something granted to all academics. "Academic Trust" is usually mentioned in the context of "school policy" and something thats required on the syllabus. I've never had a professor say "Well, I trust you. You don't have to use any sources." (However nice that would be.) I'm not saying to not verify or validate the work. I am saying that if I take the time to cite my sources in whatever format the professor specifies, the professor should be able to determine if I plagiarized or not on their own. Really now, if someone doesn't cite their work, that should be a giveaway that there is a potential problem. And honestly, for undergraduate work, the issue of validation isn't exactly going to be important. An overwhelmingly large majority of the time, no original research is being conducted.

by Zev 16y ago

kenjackson 16y ago

What is your concern with TurnItIn using your paper? Is it just some arbitrary thing you have against the service or were you caught cheating with it in the past or something else? Just seems random to me.

Zev 16y ago
Just to get this out of the way: I would rather fail a class than cheat. We don't know each other, so you might not believe me. But, thats my personal belief. This dislike isn't arbitrary. My problem is that I wrote the paper. I don't want a third party to be able to use it to their own monetary gain without my permission. Being forced to do so left a bad taste in my mouth. When I tried to get in touch with TurnItIn to express my concerns, I didn't receive any response. I can see the counterargument in your head already -- "But you use Google, don't you? How about Amazon and hundreds of other services that keep information about you." To which, I respond that I'm not signed into Google (prefer Bing or Duck Duck Go, at that) do not use Facebook and find Amazon's recommendations useful enough that it doesn't bother me. And I chose to use the rest of the services. These companies also make their privacy policy and what they do with the information clear. With TurnItIn, the privacy issue wasn't clear when I looked. Would they ever sell the database? If they did, would they make a reasonable effort to protect my information? I was turning in a paper with my name and email address on it, after all. Tied directly to my college information, at that.
- kenjackson 16y ago
  "I don't want a third party to be able to use it to their own monetary gain without my permission." While I can appreciate the sentiment, that's not the law. I think Fair Use must apply when we're the content providers, just as much as when its Viacom. With that said, your approach is probably the right one for you: avoid classes/teachers that use it. Personally, I don't mind, although anyone who would actually copy one of my papers has bigger academic problems than plagiarism.
  - Zev 16y ago
    My (non-lawyer) understanding is that fair use doesn't apply because this is a for-profit situations.
    - kenjackson 16y ago
      That's not true. Wikipedia lists this under "Common Misunderstandings" of Fair Use: "If you're selling for profit, it's not fair use. While commercial copying for profit work may make it harder to qualify as fair use, it does not make it impossible. For instance, in the 2 Live Crew Oh, Pretty Woman case, it was ruled that commercial parody can be fair use." Companies like Kinko's also operate under Fair Use (when you're making a copy of a page from a book).
      - Zev 16y ago
        Keeping an exact and full copy of my work without any modifications pretty much rules out the possibility of a parody. And TurnItIn isn't doing any sort of creative work with it (musical or otherwise). Unless you're saying my work is a parody of itself? In which case, its still my work. And they're still not doing any creative work with it. An algorithm can be creative, but applying it over and over is not.
        kenjackson 16y ago
        Federal Appeals Court Judges, who know US law pretty well, disagree with your assessment of US law: http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/news/2009/04/headline-here.ars http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/news/2009/04/headline-her... And it was unanimous.

enjo 16y ago

What ownership claims does the service take over your work? Is it simply to hold a copy to check for future plagiarism, or is it some larger copyright claim? My wife employs some rudimentary checks for cheating in her classes (accounting). Simply checking the author field in excel documents turns up a cheating rate in the 15% range. I'm actually rather shocked (and alarmed) that so few professors apparently choose to use these services. They absolutely should. As a student, I'd demand that they do. After all, kids coasting through college only serve to damage your degree.

Zev 16y ago
As to what the service does, please see my response to kenjackson for a bit more on this: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1741731 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1741731 I dislike the accusation and assumption that I'm going to cheat. I resent the fact that by voicing an opinion on the matter, I was accused of having a desire to cheat. I loathe being accused of lying because of someone else's actions. Especially when I've never met, encountered or so much as heard of this person before. And in my experience, using TurnItIn implies all of the above. When it came to talking about the paper and research, every professor started off by talking about academic trust, don't plagiarize and so on. It seems hollow to follow that with "Okay. Now that thats said, I don't personally believe any of it. I think that you're all liars and cheats. So, you have to use this service."
- kenjackson 16y ago
  No one is accusing you of cheating. Do you refuse to let professors grade your papers, because if they do they're implying that you have gotten every question wrong? And any professor who talks about academic trust is someone you should avoid, because they're lying. Part of academia is about verification and refutation. If you can't validate work, you don't believe it. Now it may be the case that you choose not to validate it, maybe due to trust of the author, but that trust has been gained not something granted to all academics.
  - Zev 16y ago
    No one is accusing you of cheating. Do you refuse to let professors grade your papers, because if they do they're implying that you have gotten every question wrong? Well, the head of the department all but accused me of cheating because I went and spoke to her about the use of TurnItIn. If I had to guess, I'd say that the only reason she didn't do so outright was because I hadn't turned in (or written, at that) anything yet. Nor is it like I refused to have my work graded; I tried to find alternate methods of handing my work in. And any professor who talks about academic trust is someone you should avoid, because they're lying. Part of academia is about verification and refutation. If you can't validate work, you don't believe it. Now it may be the case that you choose not to validate it, maybe due to trust of the author, but that trust has been gained not something granted to all academics. "Academic Trust" is usually mentioned in the context of "school policy" and something thats required on the syllabus. I've never had a professor say "Well, I trust you. You don't have to use any sources." (However nice that would be.) I'm not saying to not verify or validate the work. I am saying that if I take the time to cite my sources in whatever format the professor specifies, the professor should be able to determine if I plagiarized or not on their own. Really now, if someone doesn't cite their work, that should be a giveaway that there is a potential problem. And honestly, for undergraduate work, the issue of validation isn't exactly going to be important. An overwhelmingly large majority of the time, no original research is being conducted.