4 ms·

But this isn't just summing up a few positive integers, in which case there's no ambiguity in what the answer is. Once you start summing up infinitely many thi

But this isn't just summing up a few positive integers, in which case there's no ambiguity in what the answer is. Once you start summing up infinitely many things you have to bring in some theory and some techniques to justify what the answer is. These techniques generally have a limited scope, but there's a big theory of "divergent series" that shows that if you extend these techniques to more contexts you still get a definition that is compatible with most of what one would want from a limit. For example, taking running averages, or taking it as the coefficients of a series and taking a limit. So classically 1-1+1-1+1... doesn't converge, but if you "squint" and take the running averages of the partial sums (1,0,1,0,...) you would get 1/2. Or if you use the fact that 1+x+x^2+x^3+... = 1/(1-x) and take x=-1 you would get 1/2. Or a myriad other approaches that are perfectly valid with standard convergence, and just all happen to get you that 1-1+1-1+... is 1/2. And yes if you squint very hard you would get that 1+2+4+8+16+... = 1/(1-2)=-1

filmor 8y ago
The problem with this first approach is that you can get arbitrary results just be reordering the series. Also, the formula you give for the geometric series only works for |x|<1.
- masterjack 8y ago
  Reordering a divergent series can indeed give you any result you want. This is not reordering though, it’s called Cesàro summation. It won’t always get you an answer, but if it does then the answer is unique and reacts nicely to sums and products. Talking about it as summation might be misleading since that’s one of those concrete terms that mathematicians like to redefine without anyone’s approval. Picture we have a library that includes many tricks and approaches for taking an infinite series as input and outputs a number. We know it works as expected on every convergent series. But we forgot to put in any preconditions and we’ve let people input things that are not convergent series. But whoa in many cases we are still getting a number out of it, and it’s always the same answer no matter what we do. Maybe that’s something worth studying?
  - JadeNB 8y ago
    > This is not reordering though, it’s called Cesàro summation. It won’t always get you an answer, but if it does then the answer is unique and reacts nicely to sums and products. It's also probably worth noting that, if the series is genuinely summable, then Cesàro summation gives its sum.
taneq 8y ago
> So classically 1-1+1-1+1... doesn't converge, but if you "squint" and take the running averages of the partial sums (1,0,1,0,...) you would get 1/2 Why would you take the running average and how is that relevant to the sum?
- Doxin 8y ago
  He's taking the running average of the partial sums: 1-1 = 0 0+1 = 1 1-1 = 0 0+1 = etc etc The partial sum would end up being equal to the final sum by definition when you're done summing all items. Since we're talking about infinite sequences you're never done summing all items so you'll have to do something else to end up with an answer. for example seeing which way the partial sum trends. In this case it trends solidly in the direction of 1/2
  - Koshkin 8y ago
    > In this case it trends solidly in the direction of 1/2 ...except that it doesn't; to me, it even looks more like it trends in the opposite direction, i.e. it is trying to stay away from 1/2.
    - whatshisface 8y ago
      The farthest it could get from 1/2 would be if it ran off to + or - infinity. Hovering between +1 and -1 could be compared to an orbit.
  - hammock 8y ago
    >...except that it doesn't; to me, it even looks more like it trends in the opposite direction, i.e. it is trying to stay away from 1/2. Like two magnets repelling each other: if you were to hold them together and we call that 1/2 - but they are always trying to push away from each other!

filmor 8y ago

The problem with this first approach is that you can get arbitrary results just be reordering the series. Also, the formula you give for the geometric series only works for |x|<1.

masterjack 8y ago
Reordering a divergent series can indeed give you any result you want. This is not reordering though, it’s called Cesàro summation. It won’t always get you an answer, but if it does then the answer is unique and reacts nicely to sums and products. Talking about it as summation might be misleading since that’s one of those concrete terms that mathematicians like to redefine without anyone’s approval. Picture we have a library that includes many tricks and approaches for taking an infinite series as input and outputs a number. We know it works as expected on every convergent series. But we forgot to put in any preconditions and we’ve let people input things that are not convergent series. But whoa in many cases we are still getting a number out of it, and it’s always the same answer no matter what we do. Maybe that’s something worth studying?
- JadeNB 8y ago
  > This is not reordering though, it’s called Cesàro summation. It won’t always get you an answer, but if it does then the answer is unique and reacts nicely to sums and products. It's also probably worth noting that, if the series is genuinely summable, then Cesàro summation gives its sum.

taneq 8y ago

> So classically 1-1+1-1+1... doesn't converge, but if you "squint" and take the running averages of the partial sums (1,0,1,0,...) you would get 1/2 Why would you take the running average and how is that relevant to the sum?

Doxin 8y ago
He's taking the running average of the partial sums: 1-1 = 0 0+1 = 1 1-1 = 0 0+1 = etc etc The partial sum would end up being equal to the final sum by definition when you're done summing all items. Since we're talking about infinite sequences you're never done summing all items so you'll have to do something else to end up with an answer. for example seeing which way the partial sum trends. In this case it trends solidly in the direction of 1/2
- Koshkin 8y ago
  > In this case it trends solidly in the direction of 1/2 ...except that it doesn't; to me, it even looks more like it trends in the opposite direction, i.e. it is trying to stay away from 1/2.
  - whatshisface 8y ago
    The farthest it could get from 1/2 would be if it ran off to + or - infinity. Hovering between +1 and -1 could be compared to an orbit.
- hammock 8y ago
  >...except that it doesn't; to me, it even looks more like it trends in the opposite direction, i.e. it is trying to stay away from 1/2. Like two magnets repelling each other: if you were to hold them together and we call that 1/2 - but they are always trying to push away from each other!