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I like machines that are built to take a beating. My penultimate laptop was an HP Mini 101; I only replaced it on a whim, and still use it from time to time. T

I like machines that are built to take a beating. My penultimate laptop was an HP Mini 101; I only replaced it on a whim, and still use it from time to time. The keys have been worn to be smooth, concave and most are missing the printed text. When I last opened it up to add an SSD a suprising amount of sand came pouring out; having been taken to many beaches, tossed in bags, and generally used outdoors it had accumulated a huge amount of extra material. I now use a Thinkpad X140e; it's got a rubberized shock-protected shell and a reinforced body. The keys are in a similar state, the body is cracked and taped together from wear, and it's fallen down several flights of stairs and fallen from great heights. (Thanks, kids!) Too many liquids have spilled on it. The combined cost of both these machines and the replacement batteries, new RAM, larger disks that I've added to them is less than that of any mac; and they've taken a hell of a beating. Running Linux, of course.

Symbiote 8y ago
> Running Linux, of course. I wish more people would. That's the best way to get any issues fixed, whether by filing bug reports, writing up a workaround on a wiki or Stackoverflow to help others, or fixing the bug. It's important for us to own our own tools, and keep the right to do with them as we wish. We expect this for our servers, but ignore it for laptops and desktops. If developers continue like this, then users will be corralled further into walled gardens of pay-only or data-leaking software. HN is outraged when farmers aren't allowed to repair their John Deere tractors, yet the majority choose even more restricted OSs for work and personal use. (This comment written in Firefox on KDE (Kubuntu) with a 4K screen, all working very nicely.)
- fauigerzigerk 8y ago
  And why do you think that a lot of people who are painfully aware of all the issues you mention still refuse to use Linux on a laptop while happily using it on servers? There is a riduculous repetitiveness about this debate. For me and many others, Linux on a laptop has always been unstable, insecure, hot and noisy. Many specific issues can be fixed if you put in the effort, but on almost every dist-upgrade something essential breaks and you're back to square one. And the response to these issues has always been a mixture of disbelief, denial, accusations of incompetence and pointers to ridiculously convoluted and brittle workarounds. There are bound to be people on every message board claiming to have run Linux for years if not decades without any of the issues I'm seeing on a daily basis and have been seeing for decades on scores of different laptops. So where do we stand on this? Will we ever get out of this unproductive loop of claims and counter claims while an oligopoly of corporations builds ever higher walls around more and more restrictive gardens?
  - Jedd 8y ago
    > There is a riduculous repetitiveness about this debate. For me and many others, Linux on a laptop has always been unstable, insecure, hot and noisy. > Will we ever get out of this unproductive loop of claims and counter claims... Sounds like a no.
  - AsyncAwait 8y ago
    > For me and many others, Linux on a laptop has always been unstable, insecure, hot and noisy. I've successfully converted many people with similar claims over to Linux and here's what I've found; most of them were trying Linux on a subpar, non-standard laptop, (Like an old MacBook or a slow Celeron), to lower their investment if they don't like it, which is fine, but then comparing the experience to their high end MBP running macOS, (try installing macOS to the same set of low-end machines most try to put Linux on, see how that goes). All it took is for them to get good, solid hardware, (like a recent Intel stack, or a Ryzen with a GPU compatible with the AMDGPU driver), and all was good. Not saying that is your case, but it is shockingly common, which is unfair to Linux, I'd say.
    - admg 8y ago
      I'd agree with that, I run stock ubuntu on a thinkpad t460p. I have only one issue which is that display scaling is not fractional, its in set values which doesn't play well with resolutions above 1080p. Thats a gnome issue though and doesn't stop the screen working perfectly when the resolution is set to 1080p instead of 2550x1440 or whatever it is.
      - pedrocr 8y ago
        This is trivial to fix actually. Ubuntu 16.04 had "fractional" scaling by default but in reality all it did was between 1x and 2x use 1x with larger fonts. 18.04 lost that with the gnome transition but you can just change the font scaling manually. Less convenient and polished but still there in the tweak tool. Firefox also includes a scaling option in the configs. With those two settings my T460s with the 2560x1440 screen looks great. It does suck that the Gnome transition in the new LTS has been so bad. For all its quirks the Unity on Xorg experience was actually very stable and polished for years now.
- Ntrails 8y ago
  > It's important for us to own our own tools, and keep the right to do with them as we wish At no point in my life have I had any investment in linux, it's not mine. I use windows at work, I develop using .Net-y languages in visual studio. And I get you're speaking for a different subset of developers on hn. The real ones, who believe fervently in open source etc etc. But you say "us" and I don't think you should be comfortable representing an entire cross section of the internet so blithely.
  - AsyncAwait 8y ago
    > The real ones, who believe fervently in open source etc etc The people who really care about owning their tools, privacy etc. usually care more about the whole principle behind free/libre software, rather than merely open-source. But I think the OP was making a point that it is important for all of us to care about this, not just people who already do, because in the end, it impacts all.
- isostatic 8y ago
  What bugs? I haven't had a hardware problem in linux since 2005. I do have a problem reading visio files though. I have a solution, I tell them to f-off and send me a pdf if they want my views.
  - keymone 8y ago
    > haven't had a hardware problem in linux since 2005 have you heard of GUI?
    - isostatic 8y ago
      I've run xubuntu on this thinkpad since 2010, currently 16.04. I've just rdesktopped into a windows machine to run a cisco ASA tool. Just had to reboot it. YMMV of course, and the plural of annecdote isn't data, but I find it hard to raise bugs when they don't affect me.
      - keymone 8y ago
        well i consider myself fairly technical and i've been trying various linuxes since 2003 - every single time there were some issues that i can't imagine non-technical person to deal with. no matter the distro, no matter the desktop environment, no matter the hardware. graphics drivers, sound system, xorg config, multiple monitors, wifi, you name it. so excuse me if i take your comment about "no hardware problem since 2005" with a grain of salt.
        isostatic 8y ago
        I've had tons of problems on the occasions I've built a windows machine -- took me 12 hours to get a windows 7 machine running casparcg successfully in 2015. I guess it's what you know.
  - apexalpha 8y ago
    >What bugs? I haven't had a hardware problem in linux since 2005. Come on, we all love open source here, but let's be honest: this statement is false.
- bhnmmhmd 8y ago
  From Game Theory perspective, "not using Linux" is actually the game's equilibrium. Because if you have to choose between a proprietary OS (Windows, macOS) and an FOSS (GNU/Linux, BSD, ...), you'd have to choose the former in order to increase your own utility. If people said they're gonna start using Linux from now on, that wouldn't work, since at least some are willing to "unilaterally deviate" from that decision and use Windows/macOS to gain a boost against others. If you want people to start using FOSS, you'd have to offer them something they can't have on non-FOSS alternatives.
  - 794CD01 8y ago
    The offer is there. It's freedom, and most people don't want it.
    - analognoise 8y ago
      A 'free' computer that doesn't actually run any of the tools you need is worthless. Makes a good doorstop, I guess.
      - 794CD01 8y ago
        Indeed. You are free to modify it to run those tools, or create alternate tools that do run (maybe not so much after Oracle v Google). But ain't nobody got time for that.
        analognoise 8y ago
        This is such a bullshit argument. I don't want to spend my time making a toaster - I just want toast. Also this is why FOSS software continually reinvents the wheel, badly. Want some BS program? There are a million of them. Want an actual tool that requires deep talent and domain knowledge? Outside of compilers, if it's FOSS, it is almost certainly garbage.
        794CD01 8y ago
- rbanffy 8y ago
  > We expect this for our servers HPE, it seems, started a policy of requiring licenses to upgrade their BIOSes. :-(
- brian_herman 8y ago
  How does hdpi work on kde?
  - Symbiote 8y ago
    99.9% great. Text looks wonderful, almost everything has hi-resolution icons in the correct size. It's not easy to find things to complain about. My workflow hasn't really changed since upgrading — I still prefer to focus on one or two windows (often with the "Always on Top ᨑ" button) and just see more code/webpage in that window. Anyway, I arranged some stuff and took a screenshot: https://imgur.com/a/7FOZkdk https://imgur.com/a/7FOZkdk Under KDE's display settings, I have the scale set to 2.0. Problems: - Minor UI issues. Some UI elements in Amarok don't quite line up correctly. The loading dialog of LibreOffice is at 50% size. GIMP's toolbox buttons seem small. The default steps of shrinking/enlarging text in Konsole aren't great. - As far as I know, the HDR capability of the monitor isn't supported in Linux. - About two years ago when I last tried, mixing resolutions with multiple screens didn't work correctly. If you use a desktop, and can afford to upgrade all its screens to 4K together, I recommend doing so tomorrow. Investigate further if you'd be mixing resolutions; see if you can borrow one. Referring to [1], I have a UHD-1 screen, which is much rarer than I thought. Just 1.2% of Steam users. The more-common WQHD screens could be OK without any scaling. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Display_resolution#/media/File:Vector_Video_Standards8.svg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Display_resolution#/media/File...
- bad_good_guy 8y ago
  I dual boot Linux and Windows. I wish I could just use Linux, but any program that is likely to need to use my Nvidia graphics card just needs to be on Windows. I don't want my laptop to be constantly using a hot gpu just for displaying the screen, as I need to have EITHER the gpu or integrated graphics selected for use - swapping requires a restart. Windows has the capability to swap between the integrated graphics for simple display tasks, and GPU for more intensive tasks. Linux has bumbleebee but it hasn't been actively developed in years. I know the main cause is Nvidia's attitude but it is still disappointing.
yonkshi 8y ago
How’s the Linux battery management for laptops? This and driver compatibility are usually my biggest concern. I remember 2/3 windows laptops I used were having trouble sleeping/waking up when lids were shut
- tfolbrecht 8y ago
  Stock Debian Stretch on my Lenovo works very well. Battery time estimation is dead on, suspend is very low power (days). You can set the lid shut behavior through the gnome admin tools. Check it out!
- fyfy18 8y ago
  No issues on my X250, everything worked out of the box with Fedora. Battery life under Linux compared to Windows 10 seems slightly better - I guess it’s because I’m using MATE, so it’s a less resource hungry DE.
- papaf 8y ago
  I switched from Windows to Linux on my work Dell and battery life is the same. I go to standby on lid closed and shutdown at the end of the day. Bootup to login takes 20 seconds so I don't bother with hibernate.
  - dredmorbius 8y ago
    The issue for me is that hibernate saves user state (desktop, apps, edit state), reboot doesn't. I expect a desktop session to live months. IOW: Your solution may not suite all.
    - mamon 8y ago
      Clearing user state is one of the reasons I prefer reboots - it helps keep my desktop clean and tidy. I cannot imagine the mess that would arise if my session lived months. I use shutdown as a shortcut for "close all application I don't use right now"
      - 8y ago
auvrw 8y ago
> Thinkpad X140e woop, woop! the design where the display is _least_ fragile part of the laptop is brilliant: wins over removing extra ounces or millimeters. i wish more laptops were built this way and suspect the only reason they aren't is because it doesn't look as "hi-tech" as some of lenovo's other laptops.
Retr0spectrum 8y ago
I bought a new laptop recently. I was very close to paying well over £1k on an XPS 13 with an 8th gen quad core i5, 16GB of RAM, and a 512GB SSD. At some point, I came to my senses and bought a used Thinkpad X230 for just £80. I spent £100 on upgrading the RAM and SSD to match those of the XPS I mentioned (I got a rather lucky deal on the SSD). I'm currently planning on spending approximately another £100 on upgrading the display to a 13.3" 1080p IPS panel (which will require some fairly extensive hardware mods). So, for about a quarter of what I was going to spend on the XPS, I have a machine with roughly comparable specs (Significantly weaker CPU, admittedly), but a much more rugged design with upgradable and moddable hardware.
- bootloop 8y ago
  I think the XPS 13 series is reasonable priced for what you get and I thing you would not have regretted it if you would have went with that option. Your changes sound like too much work for a lot of people but its great that you found something fitting your needs at a significantly smaller price point.
- Jasonbe 8y ago
  While I applaud your DIY ethics - theres no warranty if parts fail. It also is more effort than most will go though.
- dsego 8y ago
  That 1k is a week or two of dev work depending on where you live. If you've spent more than a week on procuring that laptop, you haven't actually saved any money.
nobleach 8y ago
Believe me, I wish I COULD run linux on my main laptop for work. Unfortunately, I write a webapp that is run 50% by mobile Safari users. When a bug happens, I need to be able to plug into Safari's dev tools. Other than that, I often need decent Adobe products to work with images. As much as Gimp and Inkscape have improved over the past 10 - 20 years, they still are obtuse at best. For simply writing code, Vim looks the same pretty much everywhere.
exadeci 8y ago
Battery life on linux is awful and if you want the latest version of something you end up raising hell to get everything to work, meanwhile on a mac you just do a brew install. I'm a software engineer, I used to love to customize my computer and make it different, now I just want it to work and not having to waste hours and hours fixing it.
jjtheblunt 8y ago
How can that be, that all you mentioned cost less than a low end macbook, for instance?

Symbiote 8y ago

> Running Linux, of course. I wish more people would. That's the best way to get any issues fixed, whether by filing bug reports, writing up a workaround on a wiki or Stackoverflow to help others, or fixing the bug. It's important for us to own our own tools, and keep the right to do with them as we wish. We expect this for our servers, but ignore it for laptops and desktops. If developers continue like this, then users will be corralled further into walled gardens of pay-only or data-leaking software. HN is outraged when farmers aren't allowed to repair their John Deere tractors, yet the majority choose even more restricted OSs for work and personal use. (This comment written in Firefox on KDE (Kubuntu) with a 4K screen, all working very nicely.)

fauigerzigerk 8y ago
And why do you think that a lot of people who are painfully aware of all the issues you mention still refuse to use Linux on a laptop while happily using it on servers? There is a riduculous repetitiveness about this debate. For me and many others, Linux on a laptop has always been unstable, insecure, hot and noisy. Many specific issues can be fixed if you put in the effort, but on almost every dist-upgrade something essential breaks and you're back to square one. And the response to these issues has always been a mixture of disbelief, denial, accusations of incompetence and pointers to ridiculously convoluted and brittle workarounds. There are bound to be people on every message board claiming to have run Linux for years if not decades without any of the issues I'm seeing on a daily basis and have been seeing for decades on scores of different laptops. So where do we stand on this? Will we ever get out of this unproductive loop of claims and counter claims while an oligopoly of corporations builds ever higher walls around more and more restrictive gardens?
- Jedd 8y ago
  > There is a riduculous repetitiveness about this debate. For me and many others, Linux on a laptop has always been unstable, insecure, hot and noisy. > Will we ever get out of this unproductive loop of claims and counter claims... Sounds like a no.
- AsyncAwait 8y ago
  > For me and many others, Linux on a laptop has always been unstable, insecure, hot and noisy. I've successfully converted many people with similar claims over to Linux and here's what I've found; most of them were trying Linux on a subpar, non-standard laptop, (Like an old MacBook or a slow Celeron), to lower their investment if they don't like it, which is fine, but then comparing the experience to their high end MBP running macOS, (try installing macOS to the same set of low-end machines most try to put Linux on, see how that goes). All it took is for them to get good, solid hardware, (like a recent Intel stack, or a Ryzen with a GPU compatible with the AMDGPU driver), and all was good. Not saying that is your case, but it is shockingly common, which is unfair to Linux, I'd say.
  - admg 8y ago
    I'd agree with that, I run stock ubuntu on a thinkpad t460p. I have only one issue which is that display scaling is not fractional, its in set values which doesn't play well with resolutions above 1080p. Thats a gnome issue though and doesn't stop the screen working perfectly when the resolution is set to 1080p instead of 2550x1440 or whatever it is.
    - pedrocr 8y ago
      This is trivial to fix actually. Ubuntu 16.04 had "fractional" scaling by default but in reality all it did was between 1x and 2x use 1x with larger fonts. 18.04 lost that with the gnome transition but you can just change the font scaling manually. Less convenient and polished but still there in the tweak tool. Firefox also includes a scaling option in the configs. With those two settings my T460s with the 2560x1440 screen looks great. It does suck that the Gnome transition in the new LTS has been so bad. For all its quirks the Unity on Xorg experience was actually very stable and polished for years now.
Ntrails 8y ago
> It's important for us to own our own tools, and keep the right to do with them as we wish At no point in my life have I had any investment in linux, it's not mine. I use windows at work, I develop using .Net-y languages in visual studio. And I get you're speaking for a different subset of developers on hn. The real ones, who believe fervently in open source etc etc. But you say "us" and I don't think you should be comfortable representing an entire cross section of the internet so blithely.
- AsyncAwait 8y ago
  > The real ones, who believe fervently in open source etc etc The people who really care about owning their tools, privacy etc. usually care more about the whole principle behind free/libre software, rather than merely open-source. But I think the OP was making a point that it is important for all of us to care about this, not just people who already do, because in the end, it impacts all.
isostatic 8y ago
What bugs? I haven't had a hardware problem in linux since 2005. I do have a problem reading visio files though. I have a solution, I tell them to f-off and send me a pdf if they want my views.
- keymone 8y ago
  > haven't had a hardware problem in linux since 2005 have you heard of GUI?
  - isostatic 8y ago
    I've run xubuntu on this thinkpad since 2010, currently 16.04. I've just rdesktopped into a windows machine to run a cisco ASA tool. Just had to reboot it. YMMV of course, and the plural of annecdote isn't data, but I find it hard to raise bugs when they don't affect me.
    - keymone 8y ago
      well i consider myself fairly technical and i've been trying various linuxes since 2003 - every single time there were some issues that i can't imagine non-technical person to deal with. no matter the distro, no matter the desktop environment, no matter the hardware. graphics drivers, sound system, xorg config, multiple monitors, wifi, you name it. so excuse me if i take your comment about "no hardware problem since 2005" with a grain of salt.
      - isostatic 8y ago
        I've had tons of problems on the occasions I've built a windows machine -- took me 12 hours to get a windows 7 machine running casparcg successfully in 2015. I guess it's what you know.
- apexalpha 8y ago
  >What bugs? I haven't had a hardware problem in linux since 2005. Come on, we all love open source here, but let's be honest: this statement is false.
bhnmmhmd 8y ago
From Game Theory perspective, "not using Linux" is actually the game's equilibrium. Because if you have to choose between a proprietary OS (Windows, macOS) and an FOSS (GNU/Linux, BSD, ...), you'd have to choose the former in order to increase your own utility. If people said they're gonna start using Linux from now on, that wouldn't work, since at least some are willing to "unilaterally deviate" from that decision and use Windows/macOS to gain a boost against others. If you want people to start using FOSS, you'd have to offer them something they can't have on non-FOSS alternatives.
- 794CD01 8y ago
  The offer is there. It's freedom, and most people don't want it.
  - analognoise 8y ago
    A 'free' computer that doesn't actually run any of the tools you need is worthless. Makes a good doorstop, I guess.
    - 794CD01 8y ago
      Indeed. You are free to modify it to run those tools, or create alternate tools that do run (maybe not so much after Oracle v Google). But ain't nobody got time for that.
      - analognoise 8y ago
        This is such a bullshit argument. I don't want to spend my time making a toaster - I just want toast. Also this is why FOSS software continually reinvents the wheel, badly. Want some BS program? There are a million of them. Want an actual tool that requires deep talent and domain knowledge? Outside of compilers, if it's FOSS, it is almost certainly garbage.
        794CD01 8y ago
rbanffy 8y ago
> We expect this for our servers HPE, it seems, started a policy of requiring licenses to upgrade their BIOSes. :-(
brian_herman 8y ago
How does hdpi work on kde?
- Symbiote 8y ago
  99.9% great. Text looks wonderful, almost everything has hi-resolution icons in the correct size. It's not easy to find things to complain about. My workflow hasn't really changed since upgrading — I still prefer to focus on one or two windows (often with the "Always on Top ᨑ" button) and just see more code/webpage in that window. Anyway, I arranged some stuff and took a screenshot: https://imgur.com/a/7FOZkdk https://imgur.com/a/7FOZkdk Under KDE's display settings, I have the scale set to 2.0. Problems: - Minor UI issues. Some UI elements in Amarok don't quite line up correctly. The loading dialog of LibreOffice is at 50% size. GIMP's toolbox buttons seem small. The default steps of shrinking/enlarging text in Konsole aren't great. - As far as I know, the HDR capability of the monitor isn't supported in Linux. - About two years ago when I last tried, mixing resolutions with multiple screens didn't work correctly. If you use a desktop, and can afford to upgrade all its screens to 4K together, I recommend doing so tomorrow. Investigate further if you'd be mixing resolutions; see if you can borrow one. Referring to [1], I have a UHD-1 screen, which is much rarer than I thought. Just 1.2% of Steam users. The more-common WQHD screens could be OK without any scaling. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Display_resolution#/media/File:Vector_Video_Standards8.svg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Display_resolution#/media/File...
bad_good_guy 8y ago
I dual boot Linux and Windows. I wish I could just use Linux, but any program that is likely to need to use my Nvidia graphics card just needs to be on Windows. I don't want my laptop to be constantly using a hot gpu just for displaying the screen, as I need to have EITHER the gpu or integrated graphics selected for use - swapping requires a restart. Windows has the capability to swap between the integrated graphics for simple display tasks, and GPU for more intensive tasks. Linux has bumbleebee but it hasn't been actively developed in years. I know the main cause is Nvidia's attitude but it is still disappointing.

yonkshi 8y ago

How’s the Linux battery management for laptops? This and driver compatibility are usually my biggest concern. I remember 2/3 windows laptops I used were having trouble sleeping/waking up when lids were shut

tfolbrecht 8y ago
Stock Debian Stretch on my Lenovo works very well. Battery time estimation is dead on, suspend is very low power (days). You can set the lid shut behavior through the gnome admin tools. Check it out!
fyfy18 8y ago
No issues on my X250, everything worked out of the box with Fedora. Battery life under Linux compared to Windows 10 seems slightly better - I guess it’s because I’m using MATE, so it’s a less resource hungry DE.
papaf 8y ago
I switched from Windows to Linux on my work Dell and battery life is the same. I go to standby on lid closed and shutdown at the end of the day. Bootup to login takes 20 seconds so I don't bother with hibernate.
- dredmorbius 8y ago
  The issue for me is that hibernate saves user state (desktop, apps, edit state), reboot doesn't. I expect a desktop session to live months. IOW: Your solution may not suite all.
  - mamon 8y ago
    Clearing user state is one of the reasons I prefer reboots - it helps keep my desktop clean and tidy. I cannot imagine the mess that would arise if my session lived months. I use shutdown as a shortcut for "close all application I don't use right now"
    - 8y ago

auvrw 8y ago

> Thinkpad X140e woop, woop! the design where the display is _least_ fragile part of the laptop is brilliant: wins over removing extra ounces or millimeters. i wish more laptops were built this way and suspect the only reason they aren't is because it doesn't look as "hi-tech" as some of lenovo's other laptops.

Retr0spectrum 8y ago

I bought a new laptop recently. I was very close to paying well over £1k on an XPS 13 with an 8th gen quad core i5, 16GB of RAM, and a 512GB SSD. At some point, I came to my senses and bought a used Thinkpad X230 for just £80. I spent £100 on upgrading the RAM and SSD to match those of the XPS I mentioned (I got a rather lucky deal on the SSD). I'm currently planning on spending approximately another £100 on upgrading the display to a 13.3" 1080p IPS panel (which will require some fairly extensive hardware mods). So, for about a quarter of what I was going to spend on the XPS, I have a machine with roughly comparable specs (Significantly weaker CPU, admittedly), but a much more rugged design with upgradable and moddable hardware.

bootloop 8y ago
I think the XPS 13 series is reasonable priced for what you get and I thing you would not have regretted it if you would have went with that option. Your changes sound like too much work for a lot of people but its great that you found something fitting your needs at a significantly smaller price point.
Jasonbe 8y ago
While I applaud your DIY ethics - theres no warranty if parts fail. It also is more effort than most will go though.
dsego 8y ago
That 1k is a week or two of dev work depending on where you live. If you've spent more than a week on procuring that laptop, you haven't actually saved any money.

nobleach 8y ago

Believe me, I wish I COULD run linux on my main laptop for work. Unfortunately, I write a webapp that is run 50% by mobile Safari users. When a bug happens, I need to be able to plug into Safari's dev tools. Other than that, I often need decent Adobe products to work with images. As much as Gimp and Inkscape have improved over the past 10 - 20 years, they still are obtuse at best. For simply writing code, Vim looks the same pretty much everywhere.

exadeci 8y ago

Battery life on linux is awful and if you want the latest version of something you end up raising hell to get everything to work, meanwhile on a mac you just do a brew install. I'm a software engineer, I used to love to customize my computer and make it different, now I just want it to work and not having to waste hours and hours fixing it.

jjtheblunt 8y ago

How can that be, that all you mentioned cost less than a low end macbook, for instance?