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Housing appears to cost about as much as a major US metro area. Where did you get your information? Have you tried comparing the rent of a reasonably central

by ido 16y ago

Housing appears to cost about as much as a major US metro area. Where did you get your information? Have you tried comparing the rent of a reasonably central apartment in Frankfurt & Munich (Germany's wealthiest and most expensive cities) with their New York and San Fransisco equivalents? Housing in major cities in Germany is drastically cheaper than in the US.

tptacek 16y ago
Are you seriously suggesting that Manhattan and San Francisco are representative of the housing markets of the entire US? The average cost of a newly built detached house in Germany in 2008 was $320,540USD. The average cost of same in the United States in 2008 was $292,600[1]. Yes, I did compare, but not aggressively. What's your source? [1] Bulwien Gesa via "Global Property Guide", and the US Government, respectively.
- ido 16y ago
  My source is living in Austria, which has a very similar housing market to Germany & having friends in California & New York who pay $2000 a month for an apartment nobody here would pay even half (maybe not even a third or a quarter) of that for. And there are also much cheaper cities in Germany, I was comparing the most expensive in both countries since you talked about major US metro areas. Pretty sure that even if you go down the ladder and compare Seattle/Miami/San Diego to Hamburg/Berlin/Cologne or whatever their German counterparts are German housing is still cheaper. EDIT: I see you changed your comment while I was replying. You're right that if you compare suburban housing (detached houses) the US is cheaper. But if we are talking about metropolitan housing it's a different story. Also, relatively few people live in detached houses in Germany - these do not represent the average household like they do in the US. I don't think we are at a disagreement, because I don't think we are comparing the same thing. I am talking about metropolitan life (apartment, central location in a big city) while you are talking about housing in general (which in the US mostly comprises houses in suburbs).
  - tptacek 16y ago
    Don't let actual research statistics and my actual argument (US v Germany, not Berlin v NYC) get in the way of your life experience. Honestly, it's not that hard to actually gather the statistics and muster an argument based on evidence. Every major metro area tracks these numbers. Having just replied to another comment with 4 minutes of Google research to establish the rough parity between the cost of the Berlin rental market with that of Chicago, the third largest city in the US, I'm comfortable supposing right back at you that you're wrong, and that housing in Germany simply isn't significantly cheaper than it is in the US, despite the fact that it is the single largest component of the typical cost of living and the fact that on average Germans earn less than Americans. And, sorry, no, I'm talking about major metro, not suburbs.
    - eru 16y ago
      Berlin is poorer than German average. So I'd take comparisons of Berlin with major metropolitan areas in the US with a grain of salt.
    - ido 16y ago
      And, sorry, no, I'm talking about major metro, not suburbs. The average cost of a newly built **detached house** in Germany There are practically no detached houses in major metros in Germany, except in the very outskirts of the city & suburbs. The few exceptions to that rule are extremely expensive. This is why the comparison is not 100% apt - detached houses are a common form of housing major US cities but very uncommon in major German cities.
- sasvari 16y ago
  These numbers don't take the lifetime of the houses into account. Without having actual data I would say German houses have a higher lifetime than US counterparts. In Europe, and especially in Germany, houses are usually built not for a decade, but for multiple decades (more robust houses, better insulation etc.). I am not sure if this also applies to most American houses. Do the numbers then still reflect the actual price?
  - tptacek 16y ago
    Is it your impression that people in the US replace their physical houses every decade? Mine was built in the 1920's.
    - Vivtek 16y ago
      Mine was built in 1885, but we're not typical, tptacek.
      - tptacek 16y ago
        The average house in Oak Park is many, many decades old. I don't know what Europeans think of us, but I hope there isn't a stereotype that we live in disposable houses!
        loewenskind 16y ago
        What does "many, many decades old" mean? You do realize that there are people living in houses in Europe that have existed longer than the US has been a country, right? You do live in disposable houses. Have you seen how a house in the US is built? The walls are made of what are called 2"x4"s [1], spaced 1.5' apart. If you've ever been to Lowes or one of those kinds of places and seen insulation you'll see why. Insulation comes in big rolls 1.5' wide. Once the insulation is in sheetrock is put on the inside and blackboard on the outside. If the home is a brick it will then have bricks laid in front of the blackboard with a strip of plastic in between because of the moisture, otherwise they just put siding on. And that's it. When I explain this to people in Europe the reaction is always the same. First they look at me like they don't believe me, then they exclaim "so that's why they always fall over in high winds". There is a story over here about a German who build a German-style home on the east coast. When the inevitable hurricane came the only damage his home suffered was from the debris of the cheap American homes that fell apart hitting his house. [1] It's actually 1.5"x3.5". I believe they are counting the eventual siding as part of the size.

by ido 16y ago

tptacek 16y ago

Are you seriously suggesting that Manhattan and San Francisco are representative of the housing markets of the entire US? The average cost of a newly built detached house in Germany in 2008 was $320,540USD. The average cost of same in the United States in 2008 was $292,600[1]. Yes, I did compare, but not aggressively. What's your source? [1] Bulwien Gesa via "Global Property Guide", and the US Government, respectively.

ido 16y ago
My source is living in Austria, which has a very similar housing market to Germany & having friends in California & New York who pay $2000 a month for an apartment nobody here would pay even half (maybe not even a third or a quarter) of that for. And there are also much cheaper cities in Germany, I was comparing the most expensive in both countries since you talked about major US metro areas. Pretty sure that even if you go down the ladder and compare Seattle/Miami/San Diego to Hamburg/Berlin/Cologne or whatever their German counterparts are German housing is still cheaper. EDIT: I see you changed your comment while I was replying. You're right that if you compare suburban housing (detached houses) the US is cheaper. But if we are talking about metropolitan housing it's a different story. Also, relatively few people live in detached houses in Germany - these do not represent the average household like they do in the US. I don't think we are at a disagreement, because I don't think we are comparing the same thing. I am talking about metropolitan life (apartment, central location in a big city) while you are talking about housing in general (which in the US mostly comprises houses in suburbs).
- tptacek 16y ago
  Don't let actual research statistics and my actual argument (US v Germany, not Berlin v NYC) get in the way of your life experience. Honestly, it's not that hard to actually gather the statistics and muster an argument based on evidence. Every major metro area tracks these numbers. Having just replied to another comment with 4 minutes of Google research to establish the rough parity between the cost of the Berlin rental market with that of Chicago, the third largest city in the US, I'm comfortable supposing right back at you that you're wrong, and that housing in Germany simply isn't significantly cheaper than it is in the US, despite the fact that it is the single largest component of the typical cost of living and the fact that on average Germans earn less than Americans. And, sorry, no, I'm talking about major metro, not suburbs.
  - eru 16y ago
    Berlin is poorer than German average. So I'd take comparisons of Berlin with major metropolitan areas in the US with a grain of salt.
  - ido 16y ago
    And, sorry, no, I'm talking about major metro, not suburbs. The average cost of a newly built **detached house** in Germany There are practically no detached houses in major metros in Germany, except in the very outskirts of the city & suburbs. The few exceptions to that rule are extremely expensive. This is why the comparison is not 100% apt - detached houses are a common form of housing major US cities but very uncommon in major German cities.
sasvari 16y ago
These numbers don't take the lifetime of the houses into account. Without having actual data I would say German houses have a higher lifetime than US counterparts. In Europe, and especially in Germany, houses are usually built not for a decade, but for multiple decades (more robust houses, better insulation etc.). I am not sure if this also applies to most American houses. Do the numbers then still reflect the actual price?
- tptacek 16y ago
  Is it your impression that people in the US replace their physical houses every decade? Mine was built in the 1920's.
  - Vivtek 16y ago
    Mine was built in 1885, but we're not typical, tptacek.
    - tptacek 16y ago
      The average house in Oak Park is many, many decades old. I don't know what Europeans think of us, but I hope there isn't a stereotype that we live in disposable houses!
      - loewenskind 16y ago
        What does "many, many decades old" mean? You do realize that there are people living in houses in Europe that have existed longer than the US has been a country, right? You do live in disposable houses. Have you seen how a house in the US is built? The walls are made of what are called 2"x4"s [1], spaced 1.5' apart. If you've ever been to Lowes or one of those kinds of places and seen insulation you'll see why. Insulation comes in big rolls 1.5' wide. Once the insulation is in sheetrock is put on the inside and blackboard on the outside. If the home is a brick it will then have bricks laid in front of the blackboard with a strip of plastic in between because of the moisture, otherwise they just put siding on. And that's it. When I explain this to people in Europe the reaction is always the same. First they look at me like they don't believe me, then they exclaim "so that's why they always fall over in high winds". There is a story over here about a German who build a German-style home on the east coast. When the inevitable hurricane came the only damage his home suffered was from the debris of the cheap American homes that fell apart hitting his house. [1] It's actually 1.5"x3.5". I believe they are counting the eventual siding as part of the size.