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This is so important! Story time: I once hired someone as a Mid/Senior Dev at a large company in SV who had strong dev skills. Everything seemed great at firs

This is so important! Story time: I once hired someone as a Mid/Senior Dev at a large company in SV who had strong dev skills. Everything seemed great at first and we were very excited to have this person join the team. I respected this dev and had no personal issues with them. Our interactions were positive. However this person quit suddenly after maybe two weeks because they didn't like having to justify their technical approach on their very first project to other team members. They just wanted to work alone and not interact with anyone else. More power to this dev for seeking out their preferred work environment - I totally respect that! - but it wasn't exactly a positive experience for us. We spent weeks and weeks with Recruiting/HR and back and forth on offers to finally end up with someone who quit without any warning after mere days. And of course I get a phone call a few weeks later where this dev (without contacting me in any way) has listed me as a reference for their new job. What do they think I am going to say? "Yes, during the multiple days this person worked with me before they quit, they seemed smart?" Please don't sabotage yourself like that. Check with your references first!

trevor-e 8y ago
Are you legally allowed to mention that? I thought references could only verify if you worked for the company, or otherwise risk being sued. Maybe that's a myth? Regardless, it's pretty odd he would put your company down as a reference after only staying two weeks.
- magic_beans 8y ago
  References can say whatever they want.
  - sundaeofshock 8y ago
    References can be (and have been) sure for giving a review that keeps a person from getting a job. If I’m in a position where I can’t give a good reference, I don’t give a reference at all.
    - fourthark 8y ago
      Which is probably a good policy for a lot of other reasons.
  - nocman 8y ago
    Well, depending on what you mean by that, it isn't necessarily true. If you mean "References can say whatever they want without any potential legal ramifications", that's not true. If you say anything that is demonstrably false about the former employee, you can be sued under defamation laws (and, yes, you can lose). Of course what it was that you actually said (and the potential harm done to the former employee) makes a huge difference as to their chances of winning such a lawsuit. This is one of the reasons many employers have the policy of only confirming that a former employee has in fact worked for the company in the past. Usually it is because their legal team (or for smaller companies, just the lawyer they use) have advised them not to give out anything further.
- singlow 8y ago
  You are always at risk of being sued. But if some had listed you directly as a reference you should feel you have more freedom than if you are just listed as a former employer.
- blahyawnblah 8y ago
  I think you're thinking of HR being only able to say that the person worked there in some places.
- linsomniac 8y ago
  You're thinking employment verification, or checking that the places you listed on your work history are correct. As an employer, you open yourself up to litigation if you say anything more than dates and titles. I mean there are stories of employers being called about a past, problematic employee, and saying things like "I could get sued if I told you how their performance was, wink wink." But... :-) I don't believe in Colorado it is illegal to say anything more, it's just not worth it to risk possible litigation.
  - trevor-e 8y ago
    TIL, thanks. I guess I thought employment verification and references were roughly the same thing, which sounds silly now that I think about it.
- nicoburns 8y ago
  I think that might be a US thing. The rest of the world is much less litigousb (alhough you could still be in trouble if you actually lied)
- TheCoelacanth 8y ago
  That is a CYOA policy that many companies have, not a law. In the US, you are legally in the clear as long as you aren't telling outright falsehoods unless you have some form of explicit NDA.
  - madeofpalk 8y ago
    > CYOA (Cover Your Own Ass/Arse): an alternative form of the slang phrase Cover your ass
john_moscow 8y ago
Wouldn't it be the team lead's responsibility to look out for possible conflicts in the team and to act as a mediator?
cncrnd 8y ago
Eh. He probably just didn't like the team/felt that they didn't know what they were doing/they wasted more time on meetings and discussion in general rather than him just not wanting to justify his approach.
- EpicEng 8y ago
  I just can't imagine being able to judge that in a two week period unless it's a total shit show. I have no reason to doubt the GP and I think its more likely this is just a case of "I know better".
  - the-pigeon 8y ago
    And honestly unless the hiring manager straight up lied during interviewing that's the employees fault for not asking better questions about the position during the interview process. So many people forget that interviews are a two way street. I don't want to hire someone that is going to be unhappy in the position because unhappy programmers have poor output and bring down team morale. They need to ask specific questions about the things that are important to them in a job so I know they are really thinking about whether the position is right for them or not. Candidates who ask me no questions after being prompted for them never make it past the phone screening interview despite sometimes being very technically capable.
    - cncrnd 8y ago
      It's difficult to get an accurate perception of a team without working with them for a bit.
- madeofpalk 8y ago
  Either way, trying to get a reference from a team you were only at for a few days seems ill-advised. (btw, the comment you replied to never mentioned the gender of the person)
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
gav 8y ago
I’ll second this for a different set of reasons. Firstly, if you talk to your reference about the position you are applying for they will be in a better position to give meaningful feedback. I’ve been able to take somebody from a “maybe” to a hire because I knew how their interview went and their perceived weaknesses. Secondly, you want to make sure that the person isn’t just going to be cold called—ideally they can set up a time over email so it’s at a good time. One time, while checking my reference the company called and somebody else picked up their phone as they weren’t in. They then proceeded to tell them that they’ve never heard of me and that I didn’t ever work there.
- mathattack 8y ago
  Amen! The reference check takes work for both you and the reference. Never give it out early because there is prep time for everyone.
- UncleEntity 8y ago
  > They then proceeded to tell them that they’ve never heard of me and that I didn’t ever work there. I did that to my boss once when I worked at a temp agency, someone called asking about employment history so I dutifully typed the name into the computer and was like "nope, looks like they've never worked here." Right after I hung up the phone I was like "wait a minute..." Office staff wasn't in the workers database so we couldn't cut ourselves checks and I totally spaced on the last name.
JustSomeNobody 8y ago
You don't say anything. You transfer the person to your HR dept and they only confirm employment.
greggarious 8y ago
To clarify: you took issue with this person quitting mainly? I'd be careful saying negative things about an employee for quitting - under at will laws, it can create legal liability to retaliate when someone exercises their at-will rights.
- mavelikara 8y ago
  Stating the fact - that the GP knew him only for few days in a professional capacity - should be legal, rt? Any negative inference from that is left for the company doing the reference check.
  - greggarious 8y ago
    Yes, stating "I only knew him/her a short time" wouldn't run afoul. It's when you venture into something like "I only knew him a short time - he quit shortly after being hired. I don't have a high opinion of him" You're allowed to have opinions and share them. The problem comes if your opinion can be argued to be based on a legally protected action/characteristic. This is why many HR departments don't like their employees giving out references, which really sucks since "Yes, this person was employed during [DATES] and was not fired" is not super helpful.
- jopsen 8y ago
  Besides, if an employees quits after two weeks because it was a bad match, that's actually good. Sure, it's painful to find someone new. But it's a lot better than having to fire someone that who later. Or be stuck with someone who doesn't want to be there.
- Broken_Hippo 8y ago
  I wouldn't, so long as it sticks to facts. No need to be unreasonably negative. "Honestly, he only worked here for two weeks, and then quit without notice. I didn't even know he'd use me as a reference." "Honestly, I don't know how much help I'll be. He worked here for two weeks, and then turned in his resignation stating he wasn't comfortable discussing his work with others. I didn't realize I'd be a reference before you called". These are facts, the first two easily verifiable in court - who would likely have no trouble believing the third.

trevor-e 8y ago

Are you legally allowed to mention that? I thought references could only verify if you worked for the company, or otherwise risk being sued. Maybe that's a myth? Regardless, it's pretty odd he would put your company down as a reference after only staying two weeks.

magic_beans 8y ago
References can say whatever they want.
- sundaeofshock 8y ago
  References can be (and have been) sure for giving a review that keeps a person from getting a job. If I’m in a position where I can’t give a good reference, I don’t give a reference at all.
  - fourthark 8y ago
    Which is probably a good policy for a lot of other reasons.
- nocman 8y ago
  Well, depending on what you mean by that, it isn't necessarily true. If you mean "References can say whatever they want without any potential legal ramifications", that's not true. If you say anything that is demonstrably false about the former employee, you can be sued under defamation laws (and, yes, you can lose). Of course what it was that you actually said (and the potential harm done to the former employee) makes a huge difference as to their chances of winning such a lawsuit. This is one of the reasons many employers have the policy of only confirming that a former employee has in fact worked for the company in the past. Usually it is because their legal team (or for smaller companies, just the lawyer they use) have advised them not to give out anything further.
singlow 8y ago
You are always at risk of being sued. But if some had listed you directly as a reference you should feel you have more freedom than if you are just listed as a former employer.
blahyawnblah 8y ago
I think you're thinking of HR being only able to say that the person worked there in some places.
linsomniac 8y ago
You're thinking employment verification, or checking that the places you listed on your work history are correct. As an employer, you open yourself up to litigation if you say anything more than dates and titles. I mean there are stories of employers being called about a past, problematic employee, and saying things like "I could get sued if I told you how their performance was, wink wink." But... :-) I don't believe in Colorado it is illegal to say anything more, it's just not worth it to risk possible litigation.
- trevor-e 8y ago
  TIL, thanks. I guess I thought employment verification and references were roughly the same thing, which sounds silly now that I think about it.
nicoburns 8y ago
I think that might be a US thing. The rest of the world is much less litigousb (alhough you could still be in trouble if you actually lied)
TheCoelacanth 8y ago
That is a CYOA policy that many companies have, not a law. In the US, you are legally in the clear as long as you aren't telling outright falsehoods unless you have some form of explicit NDA.
- madeofpalk 8y ago
  > CYOA (Cover Your Own Ass/Arse): an alternative form of the slang phrase Cover your ass

john_moscow 8y ago

Wouldn't it be the team lead's responsibility to look out for possible conflicts in the team and to act as a mediator?

cncrnd 8y ago

Eh. He probably just didn't like the team/felt that they didn't know what they were doing/they wasted more time on meetings and discussion in general rather than him just not wanting to justify his approach.

EpicEng 8y ago
I just can't imagine being able to judge that in a two week period unless it's a total shit show. I have no reason to doubt the GP and I think its more likely this is just a case of "I know better".
- the-pigeon 8y ago
  And honestly unless the hiring manager straight up lied during interviewing that's the employees fault for not asking better questions about the position during the interview process. So many people forget that interviews are a two way street. I don't want to hire someone that is going to be unhappy in the position because unhappy programmers have poor output and bring down team morale. They need to ask specific questions about the things that are important to them in a job so I know they are really thinking about whether the position is right for them or not. Candidates who ask me no questions after being prompted for them never make it past the phone screening interview despite sometimes being very technically capable.
  - cncrnd 8y ago
    It's difficult to get an accurate perception of a team without working with them for a bit.
madeofpalk 8y ago
Either way, trying to get a reference from a team you were only at for a few days seems ill-advised. (btw, the comment you replied to never mentioned the gender of the person)
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]

gav 8y ago

I’ll second this for a different set of reasons. Firstly, if you talk to your reference about the position you are applying for they will be in a better position to give meaningful feedback. I’ve been able to take somebody from a “maybe” to a hire because I knew how their interview went and their perceived weaknesses. Secondly, you want to make sure that the person isn’t just going to be cold called—ideally they can set up a time over email so it’s at a good time. One time, while checking my reference the company called and somebody else picked up their phone as they weren’t in. They then proceeded to tell them that they’ve never heard of me and that I didn’t ever work there.

mathattack 8y ago
Amen! The reference check takes work for both you and the reference. Never give it out early because there is prep time for everyone.
UncleEntity 8y ago
> They then proceeded to tell them that they’ve never heard of me and that I didn’t ever work there. I did that to my boss once when I worked at a temp agency, someone called asking about employment history so I dutifully typed the name into the computer and was like "nope, looks like they've never worked here." Right after I hung up the phone I was like "wait a minute..." Office staff wasn't in the workers database so we couldn't cut ourselves checks and I totally spaced on the last name.

JustSomeNobody 8y ago

You don't say anything. You transfer the person to your HR dept and they only confirm employment.

greggarious 8y ago

To clarify: you took issue with this person quitting mainly? I'd be careful saying negative things about an employee for quitting - under at will laws, it can create legal liability to retaliate when someone exercises their at-will rights.

mavelikara 8y ago
Stating the fact - that the GP knew him only for few days in a professional capacity - should be legal, rt? Any negative inference from that is left for the company doing the reference check.
- greggarious 8y ago
  Yes, stating "I only knew him/her a short time" wouldn't run afoul. It's when you venture into something like "I only knew him a short time - he quit shortly after being hired. I don't have a high opinion of him" You're allowed to have opinions and share them. The problem comes if your opinion can be argued to be based on a legally protected action/characteristic. This is why many HR departments don't like their employees giving out references, which really sucks since "Yes, this person was employed during [DATES] and was not fired" is not super helpful.
jopsen 8y ago
Besides, if an employees quits after two weeks because it was a bad match, that's actually good. Sure, it's painful to find someone new. But it's a lot better than having to fire someone that who later. Or be stuck with someone who doesn't want to be there.
Broken_Hippo 8y ago
I wouldn't, so long as it sticks to facts. No need to be unreasonably negative. "Honestly, he only worked here for two weeks, and then quit without notice. I didn't even know he'd use me as a reference." "Honestly, I don't know how much help I'll be. He worked here for two weeks, and then turned in his resignation stating he wasn't comfortable discussing his work with others. I didn't realize I'd be a reference before you called". These are facts, the first two easily verifiable in court - who would likely have no trouble believing the third.