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Completely agreed. "Full-stack" developers fall into two camps; that is the "web developers" who know enough PHP/Node/Whatever to build a CRUD app with UI, and

Completely agreed. "Full-stack" developers fall into two camps; that is the "web developers" who know enough PHP/Node/Whatever to build a CRUD app with UI, and the serious software engineers who treat front-end as an "oh whatever" afterthought. Both end up with nothing but a huge mess at scale.

thebooglebooski 8y ago
Web developers are not serious?
- aphextron 8y ago
  That's not my point. I'm saying that there's a difference between the full-stack generalist "web developers" who know HTML/CSS/JS/PHP/Ruby, and software engineers who build complex systems, typically in Java/C#/C++.
  - anothergoogler 8y ago
    That attitude, as if there's no such thing as a complex system on the frontend, is a pox on the industry.
  - nicoburns 8y ago
    There are also people who do both. I started out with JavaScript and PHP and do a lot of React/Angular/Laravel stuff. But I have also worked on complex performance-sensitive business systems written in a mixture of C++ and Rust. My boss at my last job had done the opposite. Coming from a tradtional compsci C/C++ background (many moons ago), he learnt Angular 2 for a frontend project that required it. Both his C++ and frontend code were among the best at our company. Saying there aren't good fullstack engineers is like saying multi-instrumentalists aren't good musicians. Sure, the very very best violinists probably don't play other instruments at a high level. But the average multi-instrumentalist (who plays the violin) is a lot better than the average violinist.
  - jsutton 8y ago
    Building complex systems is far from limited to the backend.
  - throwaway756 8y ago
    Correct. There is a difference. Typically these 2 "types" sell themselves very differently also. What actually is your point? Reading between the lines, it seems to be: "Anyone who calls themselves a full-stack developer is garbage - it's just a matter of what side your garbage is on."
axaxs 8y ago
I'm this way, and I don't know why. I try to avoid frontend, until I'm more or less forced into it. I can make something functional, but inevitably get grilled about my way of going about it or why I didn't use 2018x style. The fact is, I don't care. I hate every minute of it, and only learn enough to knock it out. I find myself mentally complaining every step of the way. I just don't like how the web as it is is designed, written, or fits together. I wish there was an off switch, as I know i'd be more valuable with these skills, but I'm just mentally unable to accept it.

thebooglebooski 8y ago

Web developers are not serious?

aphextron 8y ago
That's not my point. I'm saying that there's a difference between the full-stack generalist "web developers" who know HTML/CSS/JS/PHP/Ruby, and software engineers who build complex systems, typically in Java/C#/C++.
- anothergoogler 8y ago
  That attitude, as if there's no such thing as a complex system on the frontend, is a pox on the industry.
- nicoburns 8y ago
  There are also people who do both. I started out with JavaScript and PHP and do a lot of React/Angular/Laravel stuff. But I have also worked on complex performance-sensitive business systems written in a mixture of C++ and Rust. My boss at my last job had done the opposite. Coming from a tradtional compsci C/C++ background (many moons ago), he learnt Angular 2 for a frontend project that required it. Both his C++ and frontend code were among the best at our company. Saying there aren't good fullstack engineers is like saying multi-instrumentalists aren't good musicians. Sure, the very very best violinists probably don't play other instruments at a high level. But the average multi-instrumentalist (who plays the violin) is a lot better than the average violinist.
- jsutton 8y ago
  Building complex systems is far from limited to the backend.
- throwaway756 8y ago
  Correct. There is a difference. Typically these 2 "types" sell themselves very differently also. What actually is your point? Reading between the lines, it seems to be: "Anyone who calls themselves a full-stack developer is garbage - it's just a matter of what side your garbage is on."

axaxs 8y ago

I'm this way, and I don't know why. I try to avoid frontend, until I'm more or less forced into it. I can make something functional, but inevitably get grilled about my way of going about it or why I didn't use 2018x style. The fact is, I don't care. I hate every minute of it, and only learn enough to knock it out. I find myself mentally complaining every step of the way. I just don't like how the web as it is is designed, written, or fits together. I wish there was an off switch, as I know i'd be more valuable with these skills, but I'm just mentally unable to accept it.