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Facebook Patent Imagines Triggering a Phone’s Mic When Hidden Signal Plays on TV
- pinewurst 8y agoThis is apparently already in use: https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2015/11/beware-of-ads-that-use-inaudible-sound-to-link-your-phone-tv-tablet-and-pc/ https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2015/11/beware-of-ads-th...
- noir_lord 8y agoYeah it's SilverPush isn't it, I remember this from a few years ago. No matter how many ways I come up with to do things I'd never actually do there always seems to be someone who both thinks of things I didn't and absolutely would. Depressing really.
- voltagex_ 8y agoSomeone has a dataset of every (?) apk from the Play Store - they need to scan for SilverPush and release the results.
- smilliken 8y agoHere you go! 8 apps with SilverPush currently integrated: https://mixrank.com/playstore/namespaces/com.silverpush.sdk.android/installs?expiration=2018-07-29&sharedby=scott%40deltaex.com&auth=709d8c7aa5e29ef2 https://mixrank.com/playstore/namespaces/com.silverpush.sdk.... 68 apps that have removed it: https://mixrank.com/playstore/namespaces/com.silverpush.sdk.android/uninstalls?expiration=2018-07-29&page_size=250&sharedby=scott%40deltaex.com&auth=b6a58a6e6e9a663f https://mixrank.com/playstore/namespaces/com.silverpush.sdk.... The FTC cracked down on SilverPush a couple years ago, which explains why almost all apps have removed it: https://www.ftc.gov/news-events/press-releases/2016/03/ftc-issues-warning-letters-app-developers-using-silverpush-code https://www.ftc.gov/news-events/press-releases/2016/03/ftc-i...
- mhfs 8y agoCouldn’t be happier with the decision to delete my Facebook account.
- partiallypro 8y agoDon't worry Google, Apple, et al just listen to you outright.
- mhfs 8y agoI agree it’s hard to really stop being tracked but I’ve been trying to become less of an easy target lately. Stopped using gmail as my main email and made duckduckgo my default search engine. Plus the traditional browser extensions. Far from perfect? Yes. But at least I take some confort from no longer being such a juicy ad target.
- saagarjha 8y agoYou may have made yourself a juicer target by doing that, though…
- codeisawesome 8y agoCould you elaborate? I understand the concept of a you-shaped-hole-in-the-graph, when you opt out. But is that what you’re referring to?
- saagarjha 8y agoIt’s kind of like putting your stuff in a safe rather than showing it to everyone: sure, nobody gets to see what you put in. But it’s probably something of value.
- flak48 8y agoIt's like knowing that you are a duckduckgogo user/or that you don't like being tracked is also a valid data point for advertisers. I remember seeing a post yesterday on HN where they mentioned that some ad networks treat the 'Do not Track' preference as an additional data point about your personality instead of simply honoring your preference.
- brian-armstrong 8y agoIf anyone wants to try ultrasonic transmission, I have a demo that runs in your browser, and boy do I love to plug it https://quiet.github.io/quiet-js https://quiet.github.io/quiet-js
- vokep 8y agoVery cool, glad you mentioned it!
- asteli 8y agoThis is pretty amazing, worked well out-of-the-box between my laptop and phone. Makes me think of all the weird ways that one could exfiltrate data (to use a different example I've seen, convincing a device to puke its firmware out via an LED) Also I'm pleasantly surprised by my ability to hear (barely) the 19kHz carrier.
- paulie_a 8y agoSome group either got caught or proved you could exfiltrate data via the fans on the air gapped computer to the microphone on the connected one. It was obviously incredibly low speed but possible. I honestly don't recall if this was just a trial or it was used in the field by a spy agency
- Nition 8y agoI saw one where they got audio out of a silent video of sound waves in the area vibrating a potato chip packet on the ground. http://news.mit.edu/2014/algorithm-recovers-speech-from-vibrations-0804 http://news.mit.edu/2014/algorithm-recovers-speech-from-vibr...
- disqard 8y agoThat was impressive work, but they do require a camera that can record at 2000-6000 fps.
- luddaite 8y agoI wonder if you could solder a low pass filter into the electronics that drive the speakers in a TV in order to disable this sort of tracking. It might be even easier if you have an external receiver.
- bcheung 8y agoA lot of fingerprinting technologies use something called Difference of Gaussian (a type of bandpass filter). However, in practice you capture interest points across multiple bands (scale space). Basically what this means is that interest points are in multiple frequency bands. A high or low pass filter is unlikely to filter out a significant number of these interest points at other frequencies so the fingerprint is still able to match with a fairly high confidence.
- luddaite 8y agoIf the fingerprint frequencies are in the audible range, wouldn't you hear a brief humming when the fingerprint signal is being broadcast?
- ginko 8y agoI've been thinking the same. Another option might be jamming with ultrasonic white noise, but I'm not sure about the health & comfort effects of having something like that going 24/7.
- wyattjoh 8y agoFrom what I understand, this isn't a problem for users on iOS who haven't given microphone access to the offending apps right?
- fiatpandas 8y agoWould also like to know this. And even if you did allow access, there would be the big red recording bar shown at the top of your screen when activated, right?
- Karunamon 8y agoThis is my understanding as well. Even if something has permissions granted to it by default as the system apps do, they’ll still show usage.
- rnet85 8y agoNope, just tried this https://quiet.github.io/quiet-js https://quiet.github.io/quiet-js on safari on my iphone. It just asks for permission, after that there is no indication that it's listening or not
- coolspot 8y agoTried the same. It has red microphone indicator in the URL bar. Safari, iOS 11.4
- 0x0 8y agoAn app can't listen to the mic unless you grant mic permission, unless the app has been bestowed with magic entitlements by Apple. For example, Apple Clips is an app in the app store with magic entitlements that bypass cam&mic permission prompts. I have no idea why they brought out the big guns for that. Also, Uber was running with a magic screen scraping entitlement for a while, apparently to support Apple Watch in the early days.
- deleted 8y ago[deleted]
- cryoshon 8y agoyes, but facebook "cares about user's privacy" and people here on HN will stick their head firmly into the sand and swear up and down that this is somehow excusable. violating privacy is their business model. there are no (zero) limits to the lengths they will go to fulfill the end of violating your privacy whether or not you are a user of their service. i highly doubt any user would knowingly consent to this.
- thewizardofaus 8y agoYou can never get a free lunch. If you ain't paying for it, you're paying for it with your data.
- codedokode 8y agoThis is a little bit outdated. Nowadays you pay with both your money and your data. For example, see Windows telemetry. It even collects the full command line for applications elevated through UAC.
- taneq 8y agoBut it's not a privacy violation, because you accepted the TOS and it clearly states in section 57, paragraph 22, on the 15th line: "Facebook application may use the microphone to enhance your experience." /s
- dlhavema 8y agodid i misunderstand the fact that it needs the microphone on listening for the signal to turn the microphone on to record another signal?
- icebraining 8y agoThat was my question as well, we must be missing something.
- vuln 8y agoWith all the Facebook 'We're sorry' on TV it's a no brainier. They want to see if you're still surfing Facebook while they apologise. Also they can see if the money their spending is effective.
- peterlk 8y agoGoogle, Amazon, and others who have speech-based "smart" devices don't even need this. Just apply Shazam to commercials. I would be very surprised to learn that they weren't already doing this.
- reaperducer 8y agoJust apply Shazam to commercials. I would be very surprised to learn that they weren't already doing this. Shazam does this on both commercials and TV shows. I've seen several times "Shazam this ad for more information!" at the bottom of the screen.
- codeisawesome 8y agoI think peterlk might be talking about a more sinister version where the computation is performed without consent.
- ben509 8y agoThis is a patent, no one has actually made it, and big corporations file tons of patents just to have them. It's fine to keep an eye on it, but it's not a big story because, fundamentally, no one has done anything or has concrete plans to do it. As bad as Facebook is about watching your every move, don't forget that Gizmodo, as part of Univision, is also a large corporation incentivized to push your buttons for money.
- ballenf 8y agoProbably naive of me, but I also see a potential silver lining in large companies patenting evil ideas: it's a very effective mechanism for ensuring they don't get commercialized. And if they are, you know that FB is either behind it or has condoned it, so can focus your efforts to stop it on one target. Again, potentially anyway.
- decebalus1 8y ago> it's a very effective mechanism for ensuring they don't get commercialized. False. Patents can be licensed and anyone with money can use it. Also, the patents are more like legal ammo which is used only when needed. So it's actually a mechanism for ensuring that: - nobody who bothers the large company commercializes it. - nobody but the wealthy members of a 'cartel' commercialize it.
- fao_ 8y ago> This is a patent, no one has actually made it, False. This has been in use by ad companies for quite a while now. One implementation, Silverpush, was reverse-engineered three years ago: https://www.theregister.co.uk/2015/11/20/silverpush_soundwave_ad_tracker/ https://www.theregister.co.uk/2015/11/20/silverpush_soundwav... And the company advertised it's services a year before that: https://techcrunch.com/2014/07/24/silverpush-audio-beacons/ https://techcrunch.com/2014/07/24/silverpush-audio-beacons/ More sources: https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2015/11/beware-of-ads-that-use-inaudible-sound-to-link-your-phone-tv-tablet-and-pc/ https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2015/11/beware-of-ads-th... https://thehackernews.com/2017/05/ultrasonic-tracking-signals-apps.html https://thehackernews.com/2017/05/ultrasonic-tracking-signal... https://www.wired.com/2016/11/block-ultrasonic-signals-didnt-know-tracking/ https://www.wired.com/2016/11/block-ultrasonic-signals-didnt... https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2017/05/theres-a-spike-in-android-apps-that-covertly-listen-for-inaudible-sounds-in-ads/ https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2017/05/there...
- reaperducer 8y agoOh good. It's the CueCat again.[0] I've been meaning to do a blog post explaining why this wasn't the technological disaster everyone makes it out to be. Perhaps this is an opportunity. [0]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CueCat https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CueCat
- TaylorAlexander 8y agoI noticed recently that a YouTube ad that played on my device had a high pitched whine in it. Could have been an audio editing error, but I wondered if it was some kind of trigger, perhaps to see if I am near others when it goes off. I really dislike being tracked. I wish it was easier to “go dark” and still own a smartphone like device.
- imglorp 8y agoIt would be nice to capture that and decode.
- NetOpWibby 8y agoYou and me both.
- SquirrelOnFire 8y agoCheck out light phone 2. Might suit you.
- NetOpWibby 8y agoI’m still waiting on my book reward from their first campaign. Am not giving them any money until I get what I paid for.
- taneq 8y ago"Imagines"
- gnadx 8y agoIf you really needed another reason to remove the Facebook client from your phone.... well, here you go.
- jhowell 8y agoNeilsen has a similar API. Trigger your phone, send coordinate data when inside a geofence. Sure it's for a better user experience.
- lovetrump 8y agoI think that they should just record everything... the information is already out there anyways...
- Uberphallus 8y agoYet another piece of previous art: the Spanish La Liga recording from the phone app to identify unlicensed broadcasts: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17296449 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17296449
- madmulita 8y agoCan someone please explain to me why, if this is possible, I have to point my remote control to the TV to make it do something?