6 ms·

Not spying on me and not transmitting unknown to me personal information to unknown parties would be a killer feature. I treat any windows machine as if it has

Not spying on me and not transmitting unknown to me personal information to unknown parties would be a killer feature. I treat any windows machine as if it has a keylogger and submits all my activity to all major governments (maybe only one today and “all” in a few years when my data gets sold, shared or stolen). This is a serious issue for me.

2bitencryption 8y ago
> I treat any windows machine as if it has a keylogger I found the problem
KirinDave 8y ago
> I treat any windows machine as if it has a keylogger and submits all my activity to all major governments (maybe only one today and “all” in a few years when my data gets sold, shared or stolen). Why is Apple's OSX, which exhibits a lot of the same behavior with spotlight, exempt from this concern? Don't get me wrong, I don't like these as-you-type-send-it-up search interfaces. But if we're gonna call companies on doing this, Microsoft has scaled back its analytics more than Apple and its App store have.
- ymse 8y ago
  > Why is Apple's OSX, which exhibits a lot of the same behavior with spotlight, exempt from this concern? They aren't. Neither is Ubuntu[0]. Luckily there are plenty of other operating systems that take your privacy seriously. Join the bright side. [0] https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/ubuntu-spyware.en.html https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/ubuntu-spyware.en.html
  - nailer 8y ago
    Realistically, you probably shouldn't be running them on anything with Intel Management Engine, which has a Minix OS with an IP stack that you don't control.
    - tracewpearson 8y ago
      I'm not sure that Intel ME fits into most peoples privacy threat model the same way that OS and application analytics do.
    - gnadx 8y ago
      AMD has a similar engine embedded in its CPUs. There's absolutely no escape.
    - fsloth 8y ago
      This. What does it matter what OS you are running if you want nothing to leak unless you do complete vetting of the hardware as well. Preferably by ordering many in the same configuration and dismantling one to see it does not have anything extra. And if you do that, there is still the case of the firmware of oh so many components that are integrated to a modern pc. How do you know your network stack is not spying on you. To be dogmatic, either you have to have enormous amount of resources to create your own secure hardware, or abandon all computing devices. I prefer using off the shelf computing devices. The only level of security I excpect of them is that no-one will abuse my credit card if I don't act stupid.
      - bigphishy 8y ago
        >How do you know your network stack is not spying on you Meh, that's true, but you can always monitor your device from an upstream router or network traffic monitor.
  - KirinDave 8y ago
    Ubuntu used to, and Apple's measures are wholly ineffective. They're token gestures. But I don't trust any given computer os very much. They're all projects run by folks that have given me 0 reason to trust them. One of the most insufferable parts of your post is the assumption I don't use Linux as a primary OS. I do. I hate it slightly less than OSX. But they're all awful in equal but unique measures.
    - ymse 8y ago
      I'm sorry if the post came across as assuming. I just wanted to spread awareness, not necessarily aimed at you. There are good and trustworthy projects out there IMO. I use GuixSD and OpenBSD for all my computing needs and have 0 reason not to trust them. Curious to hear any arguments against either. To paraphrase the venerable Mutt email client: All operating systems suck. These ones just sucks less...
      - KirinDave 8y ago
        > There are good and trustworthy projects out there IMO. I use GuixSD and OpenBSD for all my computing needs and have 0 reason not to trust them. Curious to hear any arguments against either. If I could use them for anything besides bespoke server projects and really awful desktop environments I might be more interested. As it stands, they're of no use professionally, I've had poor luck on the kinds of hardware I am interest in using as a hobby, and they make Linux seem thoughtful and snappy when it comes to desktop environments. > To paraphrase the venerable Mutt email client: All operating systems suck. These ones just sucks less... I'm trying not to be too Negative Online, so don't get me started on that. :D
- millstone 8y ago
  Apple deserves the same scrutiny, but Spotlight Suggestions is designed for privacy. It uses randomly generated frequently rotated IDs and is easy to disable. Disabling Windows 10 telemetry is difficult and cannot be done via user settings. Microsoft has also been adding telemetry to other products such as VSCode and .NET Core.
  - KirinDave 8y ago
    The only assurance you have that Apple isn't producing a profile is their honest promise. Nothing stops them as it stands other than some hand waving. And you cannot disable application telemetry in the App store which everyone has, including Apple's apps. Apple's approach doesn't stop anyone from turning their apps into a privacy disaster. But sure. Windows telemetry is unique. Right.
    - brazzledazzle 8y ago
      I would prefer if they’d formalize their promises into some kind of gaurantee that was enforceable. I believe them today, but what about tomorrow? We’ve all seen companies change dramatically (for both better and worse) and do things that were extremely unethical and/or illegal. Companies are run by people after all.
    - tekknik 8y ago
      except for MS windows is a product, and for apple macos is a means to an end. plus apple doesn’t advertise in my app launcher or then use their data in their search engine (that they don’t have)
bradford 8y ago
disclaimer: MS employee, this is solely my opinion Does the GDPR do anything to put your concerns on this issue to rest? (By those regulations, MS is required, under penalty of very large fines, to not do what you are accusing them of doing.)
- tfehring 8y ago
  It's my understanding that companies only need to comply with GDPR when providing services to end users in the EU and that companies that comply with GDPR globally are only doing so due to resource constraints that Microsoft doesn't face. However, I'm probably less informed on GDPR than the average HN user, so it's very possible that my understanding is off-base or incomplete.
  - PretzelPirate 8y ago
    https://www.techrepublic.com/article/microsoft-extending-gdpr-protections-to-all-global-customers-heres-how/ https://www.techrepublic.com/article/microsoft-extending-gdp...
- bcheung 8y ago
  I doubt intelligence agencies are limited by the same standards.
- andrei_says_ 8y ago
  It will, after I see MS getting caught and going through a lawsuit which results in tools providing accountability.
  - bradford 8y ago
    MS already lets you see and delete what they collect on you at account.microsoft.com/privacy We did a lot of work to comply and provide these tools and people still think MS is part of some grand conspiracy.
    - 8y ago
malloryerik 8y ago
I guess you should stay away from North Korea's Red Star Linux, in that case.
NicoJuicy 8y ago
This issue comes again and again, I'm getting really tired of this "issue". After all this time this is the top comment, while discussing a really good convertible? He mentions that people don't trust Windows for savely restoring their session, but if i'm not mistaking, it's Ubuntu ( i think) that had such a bug for a VERY long time ( https://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=2321399 https://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=2321399 ). I have never heard such problems on Windows... It's measuring activities and performance yes, it's not stealing your information. Ubuntu did it too and even integrated Amazon in the search field. You can even see what it sends: https://www.howtogeek.com/348699/how-to-see-what-data-windows-10-is-sending-to-microsoft/ https://www.howtogeek.com/348699/how-to-see-what-data-window... PS. Probably going to get downvoted to oblivion, but please respond with comments and not with (too much) downvotes. PS 2. I also use Ubuntu a lot, which is why i can compare it too Windows on experience. Can't compare to other distro's, if i didn't use it. Both have their pro's / cons.
- andrei_says_ 8y ago
  Thank you for the links.
  - NicoJuicy 8y ago
    No problem, thanks for a decent response ;). I'm always cautious when it's a "we vs them" story. In case of Windows it could be vs Apple, Google, Linux... So :)
- hactually 8y ago
  > Probably going to get downvoted to oblivion, but please respond with comments and not with (too much) downvotes. Probably due to the fact that you're using whataboutism[1] as a defence rather than tackling the fact that Windows does log user activity and report it. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whataboutism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whataboutism
  - King-Aaron 8y ago
    Personally I just downvote someone immediately when they mention anything about being downvoted in their post. It's called losing the game.
pure-struggle 8y ago
More Americans use Apple products. If anything the American Government would be more likely to target Apple products for domestic mass surveillance programs.
anthony_barker 8y ago
. this plus they own linkedin, skype, a ton of media, and now github as well as have plugins into almost every major company/government in the world via their Active Directory.

2bitencryption 8y ago

> I treat any windows machine as if it has a keylogger I found the problem

KirinDave 8y ago

> I treat any windows machine as if it has a keylogger and submits all my activity to all major governments (maybe only one today and “all” in a few years when my data gets sold, shared or stolen). Why is Apple's OSX, which exhibits a lot of the same behavior with spotlight, exempt from this concern? Don't get me wrong, I don't like these as-you-type-send-it-up search interfaces. But if we're gonna call companies on doing this, Microsoft has scaled back its analytics more than Apple and its App store have.

ymse 8y ago
> Why is Apple's OSX, which exhibits a lot of the same behavior with spotlight, exempt from this concern? They aren't. Neither is Ubuntu[0]. Luckily there are plenty of other operating systems that take your privacy seriously. Join the bright side. [0] https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/ubuntu-spyware.en.html https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/ubuntu-spyware.en.html
- nailer 8y ago
  Realistically, you probably shouldn't be running them on anything with Intel Management Engine, which has a Minix OS with an IP stack that you don't control.
  - tracewpearson 8y ago
    I'm not sure that Intel ME fits into most peoples privacy threat model the same way that OS and application analytics do.
  - gnadx 8y ago
    AMD has a similar engine embedded in its CPUs. There's absolutely no escape.
  - fsloth 8y ago
    This. What does it matter what OS you are running if you want nothing to leak unless you do complete vetting of the hardware as well. Preferably by ordering many in the same configuration and dismantling one to see it does not have anything extra. And if you do that, there is still the case of the firmware of oh so many components that are integrated to a modern pc. How do you know your network stack is not spying on you. To be dogmatic, either you have to have enormous amount of resources to create your own secure hardware, or abandon all computing devices. I prefer using off the shelf computing devices. The only level of security I excpect of them is that no-one will abuse my credit card if I don't act stupid.
    - bigphishy 8y ago
      >How do you know your network stack is not spying on you Meh, that's true, but you can always monitor your device from an upstream router or network traffic monitor.
- KirinDave 8y ago
  Ubuntu used to, and Apple's measures are wholly ineffective. They're token gestures. But I don't trust any given computer os very much. They're all projects run by folks that have given me 0 reason to trust them. One of the most insufferable parts of your post is the assumption I don't use Linux as a primary OS. I do. I hate it slightly less than OSX. But they're all awful in equal but unique measures.
  - ymse 8y ago
    I'm sorry if the post came across as assuming. I just wanted to spread awareness, not necessarily aimed at you. There are good and trustworthy projects out there IMO. I use GuixSD and OpenBSD for all my computing needs and have 0 reason not to trust them. Curious to hear any arguments against either. To paraphrase the venerable Mutt email client: All operating systems suck. These ones just sucks less...
    - KirinDave 8y ago
      > There are good and trustworthy projects out there IMO. I use GuixSD and OpenBSD for all my computing needs and have 0 reason not to trust them. Curious to hear any arguments against either. If I could use them for anything besides bespoke server projects and really awful desktop environments I might be more interested. As it stands, they're of no use professionally, I've had poor luck on the kinds of hardware I am interest in using as a hobby, and they make Linux seem thoughtful and snappy when it comes to desktop environments. > To paraphrase the venerable Mutt email client: All operating systems suck. These ones just sucks less... I'm trying not to be too Negative Online, so don't get me started on that. :D
millstone 8y ago
Apple deserves the same scrutiny, but Spotlight Suggestions is designed for privacy. It uses randomly generated frequently rotated IDs and is easy to disable. Disabling Windows 10 telemetry is difficult and cannot be done via user settings. Microsoft has also been adding telemetry to other products such as VSCode and .NET Core.
- KirinDave 8y ago
  The only assurance you have that Apple isn't producing a profile is their honest promise. Nothing stops them as it stands other than some hand waving. And you cannot disable application telemetry in the App store which everyone has, including Apple's apps. Apple's approach doesn't stop anyone from turning their apps into a privacy disaster. But sure. Windows telemetry is unique. Right.
  - brazzledazzle 8y ago
    I would prefer if they’d formalize their promises into some kind of gaurantee that was enforceable. I believe them today, but what about tomorrow? We’ve all seen companies change dramatically (for both better and worse) and do things that were extremely unethical and/or illegal. Companies are run by people after all.
  - tekknik 8y ago
    except for MS windows is a product, and for apple macos is a means to an end. plus apple doesn’t advertise in my app launcher or then use their data in their search engine (that they don’t have)

bradford 8y ago

disclaimer: MS employee, this is solely my opinion Does the GDPR do anything to put your concerns on this issue to rest? (By those regulations, MS is required, under penalty of very large fines, to not do what you are accusing them of doing.)

tfehring 8y ago
It's my understanding that companies only need to comply with GDPR when providing services to end users in the EU and that companies that comply with GDPR globally are only doing so due to resource constraints that Microsoft doesn't face. However, I'm probably less informed on GDPR than the average HN user, so it's very possible that my understanding is off-base or incomplete.
- PretzelPirate 8y ago
  https://www.techrepublic.com/article/microsoft-extending-gdpr-protections-to-all-global-customers-heres-how/ https://www.techrepublic.com/article/microsoft-extending-gdp...
bcheung 8y ago
I doubt intelligence agencies are limited by the same standards.
andrei_says_ 8y ago
It will, after I see MS getting caught and going through a lawsuit which results in tools providing accountability.
- bradford 8y ago
  MS already lets you see and delete what they collect on you at account.microsoft.com/privacy We did a lot of work to comply and provide these tools and people still think MS is part of some grand conspiracy.
  - 8y ago

malloryerik 8y ago

I guess you should stay away from North Korea's Red Star Linux, in that case.

NicoJuicy 8y ago

This issue comes again and again, I'm getting really tired of this "issue". After all this time this is the top comment, while discussing a really good convertible? He mentions that people don't trust Windows for savely restoring their session, but if i'm not mistaking, it's Ubuntu ( i think) that had such a bug for a VERY long time ( https://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=2321399 https://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=2321399 ). I have never heard such problems on Windows... It's measuring activities and performance yes, it's not stealing your information. Ubuntu did it too and even integrated Amazon in the search field. You can even see what it sends: https://www.howtogeek.com/348699/how-to-see-what-data-windows-10-is-sending-to-microsoft/ https://www.howtogeek.com/348699/how-to-see-what-data-window... PS. Probably going to get downvoted to oblivion, but please respond with comments and not with (too much) downvotes. PS 2. I also use Ubuntu a lot, which is why i can compare it too Windows on experience. Can't compare to other distro's, if i didn't use it. Both have their pro's / cons.

andrei_says_ 8y ago
Thank you for the links.
- NicoJuicy 8y ago
  No problem, thanks for a decent response ;). I'm always cautious when it's a "we vs them" story. In case of Windows it could be vs Apple, Google, Linux... So :)
hactually 8y ago
> Probably going to get downvoted to oblivion, but please respond with comments and not with (too much) downvotes. Probably due to the fact that you're using whataboutism[1] as a defence rather than tackling the fact that Windows does log user activity and report it. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whataboutism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whataboutism
- King-Aaron 8y ago
  Personally I just downvote someone immediately when they mention anything about being downvoted in their post. It's called losing the game.

pure-struggle 8y ago

More Americans use Apple products. If anything the American Government would be more likely to target Apple products for domestic mass surveillance programs.

anthony_barker 8y ago

. this plus they own linkedin, skype, a ton of media, and now github as well as have plugins into almost every major company/government in the world via their Active Directory.