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I used to install/upgrade ATMs and was horrified that we were replacing the extremely solid OS/2 machines with Windows XP based computing cages (circa 2011). Th

I used to install/upgrade ATMs and was horrified that we were replacing the extremely solid OS/2 machines with Windows XP based computing cages (circa 2011). There was no method to update the machines other than sending a technician out monthly to take the machine offline and manually load the patches from a CD, and ATM technicians are expensive so most simply didn't. Most NCR ATMs use one of three keys that are easily available on the internet. Most banks don't check ID or even know that they have a technician coming to service their ATM, especially if you're dressed nicely or carrying a clipboard. Most of the Windows XP based NCR ATMs have multiple PS/2 ports and USB ports to plug in a keyboard and they all tend to have the same admin password.

snarf21 8y ago
A lot of the medical devices (like a pump in the hospital) have similar issues, running old Windows 95 or CE with 0 patches ever.
- liveoneggs 8y ago
  but then all of the pumps would stop working and people would die every time there was an update. General purpose operating systems are just a bad idea for running these hardware appliances.
  - bcaa7f3a8bbc 8y ago
    >General purpose operating systems are just a bad idea for running these hardware appliances. This.
  - 3pt14159 8y ago
    I agree we need stripped down OSes to run this stuff, but the core problem is thinking "we'll just air gap it and never update it" not that the OS is general purpose. Look at QNX: Millions of components run it in safety critical situations and none of it is patchable. After QNX got owned in 2017 what are we supposed to do? Open up every tank, car, and nuclear power plant? We need reliable update schedules. Trying to air gap things doesn't work. There is always a way to access the interface and bridgeware is only getting better.
    - jdietrich 8y ago
      Airgapping is a very useful layer of defence in a lot of applications. Never pushing updates is usually a bad idea, but automatic updates pushed by the OS or equipment vendor can be equally problematic. Regressions are irritating on consumer devices, but they can be catastrophic in critical embedded systems. If there's anything that can be called a "solution", it looks very much like good engineering. No technology or methodology can stop you from shipping broken systems. If you're shipping ATMs that run Windows XP in 2011, your problems almost certainly run much deeper than a bad choice of platform.
- altano 8y ago
  The FDA has to reapprove the device if you change the software, so in the medical field patching can be expensive.
  - 1over137 8y ago
    This. The regulations in this area are onerous (justifiably, probably).
- adrianN 8y ago
  As long as you don't connect them to any networks and only let authorized people access them physically, updating things could be more dangerous than living with the security flaws.
wnevets 8y ago
> There was no method to update the machines other than sending a technician out monthly to take the machine offline and manually load the patches from a CD, and ATM technicians are expensive so most simply didn't. but it was so cheap to buy the machine since the software was written for windows xp

snarf21 8y ago

A lot of the medical devices (like a pump in the hospital) have similar issues, running old Windows 95 or CE with 0 patches ever.

liveoneggs 8y ago
but then all of the pumps would stop working and people would die every time there was an update. General purpose operating systems are just a bad idea for running these hardware appliances.
- bcaa7f3a8bbc 8y ago
  >General purpose operating systems are just a bad idea for running these hardware appliances. This.
- 3pt14159 8y ago
  I agree we need stripped down OSes to run this stuff, but the core problem is thinking "we'll just air gap it and never update it" not that the OS is general purpose. Look at QNX: Millions of components run it in safety critical situations and none of it is patchable. After QNX got owned in 2017 what are we supposed to do? Open up every tank, car, and nuclear power plant? We need reliable update schedules. Trying to air gap things doesn't work. There is always a way to access the interface and bridgeware is only getting better.
  - jdietrich 8y ago
    Airgapping is a very useful layer of defence in a lot of applications. Never pushing updates is usually a bad idea, but automatic updates pushed by the OS or equipment vendor can be equally problematic. Regressions are irritating on consumer devices, but they can be catastrophic in critical embedded systems. If there's anything that can be called a "solution", it looks very much like good engineering. No technology or methodology can stop you from shipping broken systems. If you're shipping ATMs that run Windows XP in 2011, your problems almost certainly run much deeper than a bad choice of platform.
altano 8y ago
The FDA has to reapprove the device if you change the software, so in the medical field patching can be expensive.
- 1over137 8y ago
  This. The regulations in this area are onerous (justifiably, probably).
adrianN 8y ago
As long as you don't connect them to any networks and only let authorized people access them physically, updating things could be more dangerous than living with the security flaws.

wnevets 8y ago

> There was no method to update the machines other than sending a technician out monthly to take the machine offline and manually load the patches from a CD, and ATM technicians are expensive so most simply didn't. but it was so cheap to buy the machine since the software was written for windows xp