6 ms·

How about bringing back the original version of this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsoft_Natural_Keyboard https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsoft_Natural_

by zrm 8y ago

How about bringing back the original version of this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsoft_Natural_Keyboard https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsoft_Natural_Keyboard Just take the 1994 version and remake it in USB, with no other changes whatsoever. Thanks.

Jyaif 8y ago
Surely it would be even better if they replaced the keyboard's top row with a touchscreen.
whistlerbrk 8y ago
I just bought my 2nd 4000 edition, what do you mean they don't make it? The super updated "surface" one is a bit too much, don't love the keys or the separated number pad so I didn't spring for it.
- zrm 8y ago
  The angle and layout of the 4000 is different. A lot of people prefer the original.
- robohoe 8y ago
  How about one with mechanical switches?
  - Crespyl 8y ago
    A mechanical version of that layout would pretty much be an instant buy for me. The only ergonomic/split layout mechanical keyboards I can find so far are top-end niche products well beyond my price range.
    - deleted 8y ago
      [deleted]
  - sethammons 8y ago
    This. A thousand times, this. I have the 4000 at home and at work. If I could only have it with mechanical switches, insta-buy. I've talked to a few others at work who agree.
- hollerith 8y ago
  Not the person you're replying to, but my problem with the 4000 (and with "wave" and "bowl-shaped" keyboards in general) is that it is too hard for me to memorize the position and orientation of all the keys to the accuracy required for me to avoid RSI. In contrast, in the old Natural keyboard, all the keys for the left hand inhabited the same plane, and all the keys for the right hand inhabited a second plane -- excepting the arrow keys and the keys above it, which inhabited a third plane. (And when pressed a key would always travel perpendicular to this plane.) Consequently, once I determined where one key is, it was easier to know where its neighbors are because they are all in the same plane. Ergo I need to remember only 2 quantities, namely how far to the left or the right it is and how many rows forward or back, as opposed to 3 quantities -- or 5 quantities if the keys point in different directions like they do on the Kinesis Advantage and IIRC the 4000. (And within each plane, the layout of the keys followed very closely to standard layout introduced by IBM with the PS/2, which also helped me keep things memorized.) The locations of the keys on a Kinesis Advantage are even more impossible for me to memorize to the accuracy I require to avoid RSI! Now might be a good time to describe my cynical explanation for the many reports that switching from an ordinary keyboard to an "wave" or "bowl-shaped" keyboard helped with recovery from RSI: the massive change in the layout forces the coder to play closer attention to where the keys are, which keeps stress on the coder's hands low. If my cynical explanation is correct, then coders who develop RSI while using a "wave" keyboard would improve if they switch to a standard keyboard (because again the large change in keyboard format would force the coder to play closer attention to the locations of the keys). But one does not need to switch keyboard formats to pay closer attention to the precise location (and orientation -- the direction the key will move when pressed -- if you are unlucky enough to use a keyboard in which the orientation of each key is different) of each key. How do you avoid stubbing a toe when you walk around your apartment without shoes? Well, I devote a tiny fraction of my attention to where my feet and all the obstacles are. And I do the same to avoid RSI while typing.
weaksauce 8y ago
I would love that one with mechanical switches though.
- jseliger 8y ago
  That is basically a Kinesis Advantage: https://jakeseliger.com/2009/07/20/kinesis-advantage https://jakeseliger.com/2009/07/20/kinesis-advantage
  - sethammons 8y ago
    I have to disagree. The only similarity is that it is also an ergo-design. The inward bowl is hard for me to use. A guy at my work has one and due to the way I hold my hands, I can't accurately press any keys in the lower left qwerty layout (shift, z, x, c, ctl, alt, etc). Not to mention, it is absolutely huge with so much space it the middle that feels wasted. I would pay good money for an identical layout to the microsoft ergo 4000. If I had the know-how, I would consider building my own.
Phrodo_00 8y ago
Would be nice if they added mechanical switches though. MX Browns or the like would be ideal.
ISL 8y ago
I've used the v1, the Elite, the Pro, the 4000, and now the Sculpt Ergonomic (this comment typed on the latter). In my opinion, each has been better than the last. It is pretty hard for to work in the same room as anyone using anything prior to the 4000, due to the loud spacebar, and even the 4000's spacebar is pretty loud. I do slightly prefer the larger hump of the early keyboards. The Sculpt Ergonomic is a departure from the large-bodied models of the past, but for those pining for the past, give the present/future a try :). Microsoft's HID hardware has, in my experience, always been great. Thank you, everyone who has made these tools possible.
- jseliger 8y ago
  The Sculpt Ergonomic is a departure from the large-bodied models of the past, but for those pining for the past, give the present/future a try :). I wish MS made a wired version of it. At least on MacOS, the dongle seems to be a perennial problem when new OS versions emerge.
  - dubyah 8y ago
    The worst part is that the dongles are individually keyed/paired to their respective keyboards. If it breaks or is misplaced, getting another dongle won't work. The newer Surface Ergonomic keyboard is bluetooth, but it's not a ten-keyless design.
  - ascagnel_ 8y ago
    According to the Amazon listing[0], it comes with a "Bluetooth USB Dongle"; if the keyboard runs over BT (vs some proprietary signal like Logitech's stuff all used to), you may have better luck pairing it directly with the OS's bluetooth stack. [0]: https://www.amazon.com/Microsoft-Ergonomic-Wireless-Desktop-Keyboard/dp/B00CYX54C0/ https://www.amazon.com/Microsoft-Ergonomic-Wireless-Desktop-...

by zrm 8y ago

Jyaif 8y ago

Surely it would be even better if they replaced the keyboard's top row with a touchscreen.

whistlerbrk 8y ago

I just bought my 2nd 4000 edition, what do you mean they don't make it? The super updated "surface" one is a bit too much, don't love the keys or the separated number pad so I didn't spring for it.

zrm 8y ago
The angle and layout of the 4000 is different. A lot of people prefer the original.
robohoe 8y ago
How about one with mechanical switches?
- Crespyl 8y ago
  A mechanical version of that layout would pretty much be an instant buy for me. The only ergonomic/split layout mechanical keyboards I can find so far are top-end niche products well beyond my price range.
  - deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]
- sethammons 8y ago
  This. A thousand times, this. I have the 4000 at home and at work. If I could only have it with mechanical switches, insta-buy. I've talked to a few others at work who agree.
hollerith 8y ago
Not the person you're replying to, but my problem with the 4000 (and with "wave" and "bowl-shaped" keyboards in general) is that it is too hard for me to memorize the position and orientation of all the keys to the accuracy required for me to avoid RSI. In contrast, in the old Natural keyboard, all the keys for the left hand inhabited the same plane, and all the keys for the right hand inhabited a second plane -- excepting the arrow keys and the keys above it, which inhabited a third plane. (And when pressed a key would always travel perpendicular to this plane.) Consequently, once I determined where one key is, it was easier to know where its neighbors are because they are all in the same plane. Ergo I need to remember only 2 quantities, namely how far to the left or the right it is and how many rows forward or back, as opposed to 3 quantities -- or 5 quantities if the keys point in different directions like they do on the Kinesis Advantage and IIRC the 4000. (And within each plane, the layout of the keys followed very closely to standard layout introduced by IBM with the PS/2, which also helped me keep things memorized.) The locations of the keys on a Kinesis Advantage are even more impossible for me to memorize to the accuracy I require to avoid RSI! Now might be a good time to describe my cynical explanation for the many reports that switching from an ordinary keyboard to an "wave" or "bowl-shaped" keyboard helped with recovery from RSI: the massive change in the layout forces the coder to play closer attention to where the keys are, which keeps stress on the coder's hands low. If my cynical explanation is correct, then coders who develop RSI while using a "wave" keyboard would improve if they switch to a standard keyboard (because again the large change in keyboard format would force the coder to play closer attention to the locations of the keys). But one does not need to switch keyboard formats to pay closer attention to the precise location (and orientation -- the direction the key will move when pressed -- if you are unlucky enough to use a keyboard in which the orientation of each key is different) of each key. How do you avoid stubbing a toe when you walk around your apartment without shoes? Well, I devote a tiny fraction of my attention to where my feet and all the obstacles are. And I do the same to avoid RSI while typing.

weaksauce 8y ago

I would love that one with mechanical switches though.

jseliger 8y ago
That is basically a Kinesis Advantage: https://jakeseliger.com/2009/07/20/kinesis-advantage https://jakeseliger.com/2009/07/20/kinesis-advantage
- sethammons 8y ago
  I have to disagree. The only similarity is that it is also an ergo-design. The inward bowl is hard for me to use. A guy at my work has one and due to the way I hold my hands, I can't accurately press any keys in the lower left qwerty layout (shift, z, x, c, ctl, alt, etc). Not to mention, it is absolutely huge with so much space it the middle that feels wasted. I would pay good money for an identical layout to the microsoft ergo 4000. If I had the know-how, I would consider building my own.

Phrodo_00 8y ago

Would be nice if they added mechanical switches though. MX Browns or the like would be ideal.

ISL 8y ago

I've used the v1, the Elite, the Pro, the 4000, and now the Sculpt Ergonomic (this comment typed on the latter). In my opinion, each has been better than the last. It is pretty hard for to work in the same room as anyone using anything prior to the 4000, due to the loud spacebar, and even the 4000's spacebar is pretty loud. I do slightly prefer the larger hump of the early keyboards. The Sculpt Ergonomic is a departure from the large-bodied models of the past, but for those pining for the past, give the present/future a try :). Microsoft's HID hardware has, in my experience, always been great. Thank you, everyone who has made these tools possible.

jseliger 8y ago
The Sculpt Ergonomic is a departure from the large-bodied models of the past, but for those pining for the past, give the present/future a try :). I wish MS made a wired version of it. At least on MacOS, the dongle seems to be a perennial problem when new OS versions emerge.
- dubyah 8y ago
  The worst part is that the dongles are individually keyed/paired to their respective keyboards. If it breaks or is misplaced, getting another dongle won't work. The newer Surface Ergonomic keyboard is bluetooth, but it's not a ten-keyless design.
- ascagnel_ 8y ago
  According to the Amazon listing[0], it comes with a "Bluetooth USB Dongle"; if the keyboard runs over BT (vs some proprietary signal like Logitech's stuff all used to), you may have better luck pairing it directly with the OS's bluetooth stack. [0]: https://www.amazon.com/Microsoft-Ergonomic-Wireless-Desktop-Keyboard/dp/B00CYX54C0/ https://www.amazon.com/Microsoft-Ergonomic-Wireless-Desktop-...