8 ms·

Tesla Model S battery reignited twice after Florida crash

33 points by oedmarap 8y ago

africasiaeuro 8y ago
Watch: Lithum is highly toxic. Total environmentally hazardous. How many more? Li Ion batteries = weak point, once ignited, won't stop burning: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vYKTTCNUV3o https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vYKTTCNUV3o
S_A_P 8y ago
I would say that the fact this battery reignited is barely news. Its a well known "feature" of lithium batteries. Petrol is at least as dangerous from the perspective of a fire hazard. Diesel is probably the least likely to spontaneously combust.
- stefan_ 8y ago
  They clean up petrol and other leaked fluids after car crashes, what is the correct procedure to "disarm" a punctured lithium ion battery?
  - S_A_P 8y ago
    I agree with you 100%- there should be a protocol for handling this situation. I have know idea what that should be, but seems like there needs to be a way to encapsulate the battery with an insulator and prevent any further shorts/fires.
    - blattimwind 8y ago
      Putting the car in a large, fire-proof steel container (specialty engineering, they exist) for a few weeks (so you are at least somewhat sure it won't start catching fire RFN). Then dismantling the battery by hand, inspecting each cell individually. You can't really put anything around it (like a nitrogen atmosphere) that prevents fires, because the oxygen is already in there in the cathode. And so is the energy to ignite it.
  - stephengillie 8y ago
    Removing any heat source, to prevent further damage and lithium leakage, would seem to be priority. Pulling the battery fuse should be involved. A non-flammable chemical to make lithium inert would be ideal. Mineral oil or another oil could be poured into the exposed battery, but these could make the situation worse. Maybe lithium could have something else poured onto it, with the end-product of petalite (LiAl(Si2O5)2) or lithium chloride (LiCl).[0] The lithium could later be recovered from these molecules. [0] https://education.jlab.org/itselemental/ele003.html https://education.jlab.org/itselemental/ele003.html
- gwern 8y ago
  > The NTSB's report into that crash noted that after the fire had been extinguished and the car was taken to storage, the battery "emanated smoke and audible venting" but didn't ignite. However, five days later it reignited and had to be extinguished again. Do regular cars ever catch on fire 5 days after being hosed down and junked?
- dsfyu404ed 8y ago
  Petrol or even propane doesn't bring its own oxygen and ignition source and doesn't require perfect structural integrity of its container to prevent them all from mixing. A dented or punctured gas tank or propane tank won't catch on fire (in earthly conditions) without an external ignition source. Lithium batteries on the other hand will catch fire if damaged. There's hundreds of videos on YouTube of people catching old cell phone batteries on fire by puncturing or denting them.
izzydata 8y ago
I'd be more surprised to learn they were able to put out a lithium battery fire before it completely burnt up.
- yardie 8y ago
  Fire needs heat, fuel, and oxygen. Take away just one of those and no more fire. Water has normally been used to absorb heat, and takes some oxygen away. But electrical fires you need something else like CO2, powder, or halon.
  - blattimwind 8y ago
    Lithium ion battery fires bring their own oxygen.
rm_-rf_slash 8y ago
If every gasoline-powered automobile fire got the same coverage as every Tesla fire, there wouldn’t be space for anything else.
- detaro 8y ago
  Good thing then that it's not about "car caught on fire", but more specific than that.
sverige 8y ago
It seems from TFA that the speed limiter had been set to 85 mph, yet the data recorder showed the car traveling at 116 mph three seconds before the crash. Did the speed limiter fail too?
- btilly 8y ago
  The father claims that he set his son's car to have a speed limiter. However we have no reason to believe that the son didn't try to remove the limiter. Given the son's previous behavior, there is every reason to believe that the son would have noticed the limiter and tried to turn it off.
- mikeash 8y ago
  It would have been some sort of aftermarket modification (the only speed limiter available to end users at the time was part of “valet mode” and had a limit of 70MPH) so it’s not too surprising if it failed.
Latteland 8y ago
Just like you can get a patent on anything by adding "with a computer" you can get traction for any news story by adding "in a tesla" to it. A fire in any car would be horrifying, but it's not really that newsworthy. Gas cars catch on fire all the time. Dubai - car catches on fire twice! https://www.thenational.ae/uae/transport/car-catches-fire-twice-at-dubai-petrol-station-1.95799 https://www.thenational.ae/uae/transport/car-catches-fire-tw... Didn't quite make the us news. Cars catch on fire at amusement park, Teslas apparently not involved http://abc11.com/several-cars-catch-fire-in-parking-lot-of-carowinds-/3638472/ http://abc11.com/several-cars-catch-fire-in-parking-lot-of-c...
- joshlegs 8y ago
  Ok, so former reporter here. There are several 'criteria for newsworthiness'. One of them is novelty. Another is general public interest. And there is substantial general public interest in Tesla as a whole, since it is doing new things. Additionally, many of the things Tesla is trying is also novel. So that is two things right off the bat that make basically anything that happens there newsworthy to some degree. I get that people like to say "oh the media is just reporting on this failure because it's Tesla and they want them to fail," but to hold that view is to misunderstand the nature of news in general. Pieces like this aren't inherently "anti-Tesla", (which is what I am admittedly inferring you're getting at with your comment). But the fact that this is a new thing that humankind is experimenting with makes it newsworthy, and that includes its failures and successes. I also admittedly didn't read the article yet :)
  - Isinlor 8y ago
    Then reporters should emphasize baselines. Otherwise this type of reporting misleads people and reporters are to blame for it. It is a "fake news" tough not necessarily any single report is false.
  - sneak 8y ago
    If your criteria allow for this sort of handwaving nonsense, your criteria may be wrong.
Uberphallus 8y ago
> The report notes that Fort Lauderdale Fire and Rescue Department found the Tesla "fully engulfed in flames" at the crash scene and extinguished it with 200 to 300 gallons of water and foam. Water + lithium fire, smart. I'm surprised it was put out successfully to begin with. Probably it died on its own, and got restarted with the water.
- ot 8y ago
  It's literally what Tesla recommends: > USE WATER TO FIGHT A HIGH VOLTAGE BATTERY FIRE. If the battery catches fire, is exposed to high heat, or is generating heat or gases, use large amounts of water to cool the battery. It can take approximately 3,000 gallons of water, applied directly to the battery, to fully extinguish and cool down a battery fire; always establish or request an additional water supply. If water is not immediately available, use dry chemicals, CO2, foam, or another typical fire-extinguishing agent to fight the fire until water is available. https://www.tesla.com/sites/default/files/downloads/2016_Model_S_Emergency_Response_Guide_en.pdf https://www.tesla.com/sites/default/files/downloads/2016_Mod...
  - stephengillie 8y ago
    That much water is probably enough to react with all exposed lithium, while removing enough heat to prevent damage to other batteries or battery cases.
- sandworm101 8y ago
  There isn't enough lithium at play to worry about water+lithium fires. Not every battery cell is exposed. The water is needed to reduce temperature, to prevent undamaged cells from being cooked by the burning ones. Foam removes oxygen but that doesn't reduce the energy potential contained in the damaged cells It won't prevent them from cooking off their neighbours like water will. Water is also needed to unsure and carbon fiber doesn't burn, releasing all sorts of nasty stuff.
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
- 8y ago
Shivetya 8y ago
A Chevrolet Volt battery from a car used in crash testing caught fire while in storage [1] I know many are quick to dismiss battery fires "because petrol cars do it all the time" but that is not the issue. One key difference is a lithium battery fire produces toxic gases that are more dangerous [2] which are more dangerous to bystanders and first responders. A key reason these stories are noteworthy is because the technology is new and exciting. Plus many don't associate fires with batteries though Hollywood will likely provide an abundance of such excitement. So expect more stories of battery fires, especially surrounding AP accidents which are even more noteworthy but don't dismiss the issue because of petrol cars Now in that previously mentioned Volt fire there is mentioning of powering down a battery as one solution. Is that possible with the Tesla system, actually is that truly a solution? I suppose the real solution is special holding areas created to store battery packs and cars from wrecks. Probably will require manufacturer's to take ownership of them [1] https://www.popularmechanics.com/cars/hybrid-electric/a11865/the-straight-story-on-the-chevy-volt-battery-fire-6601217/ https://www.popularmechanics.com/cars/hybrid-electric/a11865... [2] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5577247/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5577247/
hamitron 8y ago
> The Model S, which was being driven by Barrett Riley, was traveling at 116mph three seconds before the collision What do you expect to happen when a lithium ion battery hits a wall at high speeds?
dsfyu404ed 8y ago
Batteries provide oxygen, fuel and a way to get that fuel hot enough to ignite (electrical energy) in close proximity. The higher the energy density the easier they will light up and the harder it is to put them out. Unless there's a fundamental breakthrough that allows us to use different materials to store electrical energy this is always going to happen from time to time. Only the most die-hard of fanboys ever claimed that having a bunch of lithium batteries on the floor of your vehicle was an improvement in safety over liquid fuels. All forms of energy storage are going to have the potential to destroy things by releasing that energy. The big difference between a bomb and energy suitable for conversion into mechanical power is time.
runako 8y ago
> his father had installed speed-control technology on his son's Model S to limit its maximum speed to 85mph Is there anywhere near Mountain View where it's legal to drive even 75mph, let alone 85mph?
- kemiller 8y ago
  Legal or not, 85 is the natural flow of traffic on Silicon Valley freeways when they're not congested.
  - shaftway 8y ago
    There are plenty of times I've been on 280 and been uncomfortable doing 85; traffic was flowing at ~100 and I felt like an obstruction.
ebikelaw 8y ago
It’s amazing that we allow a car to be sold that can go this fast. They bothered to pass a law limiting electric bicycles to 28 MPH but my car will go 155. Why?
- burger_moon 8y ago
  Your point doesn't make sense. There's speed limits for cars too. My ebike does 45mph doesn't mean I'm allowed to go that fast.
  - ebikelaw 8y ago
    If you own an e-bike that can exceed 28 MPH then it is unlawful in most jurisdictions to operate it on any bike lane or path, and you need a motorcycle license to operate it on a road. The equivalent law for cars would be if your car can exceed 45 MPH you’re not allowed to drive it in a school zone.
londons_explore 8y ago
The main cause of this accident seems to be doing 116 mph in a 30 mph speed limit zone... I can't really blame the design of the car for the fatalities in that case... The secondary fire isn't really preventable either - electric cars, due to their nature, contain batteries, and when those batteries are ripped apart in an accident, they might short circuit and catch fire. Recorvery crews need to know this, and leave the car somewhere it won't matter if it re-ignites.
nobleach 8y ago
116 mph in a 30 mph zone. Just wow.....
tonyquart 8y ago
Talking about these self-driving cars, I think there are still so many aspects that need to be fixed by the automakers. Until then, these cars should not be allowed to be operated on public roads. I have read an article that talks about this matter at https://www.lemberglaw.com/self-driving-autonomous-car-accident-injury-lawyers-attorneys/ https://www.lemberglaw.com/self-driving-autonomous-car-accid.... Hopefully the automakers will think seriously about this.

33 points by oedmarap 8y ago

Watch: Lithum is highly toxic. Total environmentally hazardous. How many more? Li Ion batteries = weak point, once ignited, won't stop burning: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vYKTTCNUV3o https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vYKTTCNUV3o

S_A_P 8y ago

I would say that the fact this battery reignited is barely news. Its a well known "feature" of lithium batteries. Petrol is at least as dangerous from the perspective of a fire hazard. Diesel is probably the least likely to spontaneously combust.

stefan_ 8y ago
They clean up petrol and other leaked fluids after car crashes, what is the correct procedure to "disarm" a punctured lithium ion battery?
- S_A_P 8y ago
  I agree with you 100%- there should be a protocol for handling this situation. I have know idea what that should be, but seems like there needs to be a way to encapsulate the battery with an insulator and prevent any further shorts/fires.
  - blattimwind 8y ago
    Putting the car in a large, fire-proof steel container (specialty engineering, they exist) for a few weeks (so you are at least somewhat sure it won't start catching fire RFN). Then dismantling the battery by hand, inspecting each cell individually. You can't really put anything around it (like a nitrogen atmosphere) that prevents fires, because the oxygen is already in there in the cathode. And so is the energy to ignite it.
- stephengillie 8y ago
  Removing any heat source, to prevent further damage and lithium leakage, would seem to be priority. Pulling the battery fuse should be involved. A non-flammable chemical to make lithium inert would be ideal. Mineral oil or another oil could be poured into the exposed battery, but these could make the situation worse. Maybe lithium could have something else poured onto it, with the end-product of petalite (LiAl(Si2O5)2) or lithium chloride (LiCl).[0] The lithium could later be recovered from these molecules. [0] https://education.jlab.org/itselemental/ele003.html https://education.jlab.org/itselemental/ele003.html
gwern 8y ago
> The NTSB's report into that crash noted that after the fire had been extinguished and the car was taken to storage, the battery "emanated smoke and audible venting" but didn't ignite. However, five days later it reignited and had to be extinguished again. Do regular cars ever catch on fire 5 days after being hosed down and junked?
dsfyu404ed 8y ago
Petrol or even propane doesn't bring its own oxygen and ignition source and doesn't require perfect structural integrity of its container to prevent them all from mixing. A dented or punctured gas tank or propane tank won't catch on fire (in earthly conditions) without an external ignition source. Lithium batteries on the other hand will catch fire if damaged. There's hundreds of videos on YouTube of people catching old cell phone batteries on fire by puncturing or denting them.

izzydata 8y ago

I'd be more surprised to learn they were able to put out a lithium battery fire before it completely burnt up.

yardie 8y ago
Fire needs heat, fuel, and oxygen. Take away just one of those and no more fire. Water has normally been used to absorb heat, and takes some oxygen away. But electrical fires you need something else like CO2, powder, or halon.
- blattimwind 8y ago
  Lithium ion battery fires bring their own oxygen.

rm_-rf_slash 8y ago

If every gasoline-powered automobile fire got the same coverage as every Tesla fire, there wouldn’t be space for anything else.

detaro 8y ago
Good thing then that it's not about "car caught on fire", but more specific than that.

sverige 8y ago

It seems from TFA that the speed limiter had been set to 85 mph, yet the data recorder showed the car traveling at 116 mph three seconds before the crash. Did the speed limiter fail too?

btilly 8y ago
The father claims that he set his son's car to have a speed limiter. However we have no reason to believe that the son didn't try to remove the limiter. Given the son's previous behavior, there is every reason to believe that the son would have noticed the limiter and tried to turn it off.
mikeash 8y ago
It would have been some sort of aftermarket modification (the only speed limiter available to end users at the time was part of “valet mode” and had a limit of 70MPH) so it’s not too surprising if it failed.

Latteland 8y ago

Just like you can get a patent on anything by adding "with a computer" you can get traction for any news story by adding "in a tesla" to it. A fire in any car would be horrifying, but it's not really that newsworthy. Gas cars catch on fire all the time. Dubai - car catches on fire twice! https://www.thenational.ae/uae/transport/car-catches-fire-twice-at-dubai-petrol-station-1.95799 https://www.thenational.ae/uae/transport/car-catches-fire-tw... Didn't quite make the us news. Cars catch on fire at amusement park, Teslas apparently not involved http://abc11.com/several-cars-catch-fire-in-parking-lot-of-carowinds-/3638472/ http://abc11.com/several-cars-catch-fire-in-parking-lot-of-c...

joshlegs 8y ago
Ok, so former reporter here. There are several 'criteria for newsworthiness'. One of them is novelty. Another is general public interest. And there is substantial general public interest in Tesla as a whole, since it is doing new things. Additionally, many of the things Tesla is trying is also novel. So that is two things right off the bat that make basically anything that happens there newsworthy to some degree. I get that people like to say "oh the media is just reporting on this failure because it's Tesla and they want them to fail," but to hold that view is to misunderstand the nature of news in general. Pieces like this aren't inherently "anti-Tesla", (which is what I am admittedly inferring you're getting at with your comment). But the fact that this is a new thing that humankind is experimenting with makes it newsworthy, and that includes its failures and successes. I also admittedly didn't read the article yet :)
- Isinlor 8y ago
  Then reporters should emphasize baselines. Otherwise this type of reporting misleads people and reporters are to blame for it. It is a "fake news" tough not necessarily any single report is false.
- sneak 8y ago
  If your criteria allow for this sort of handwaving nonsense, your criteria may be wrong.

Uberphallus 8y ago

> The report notes that Fort Lauderdale Fire and Rescue Department found the Tesla "fully engulfed in flames" at the crash scene and extinguished it with 200 to 300 gallons of water and foam. Water + lithium fire, smart. I'm surprised it was put out successfully to begin with. Probably it died on its own, and got restarted with the water.

ot 8y ago
It's literally what Tesla recommends: > USE WATER TO FIGHT A HIGH VOLTAGE BATTERY FIRE. If the battery catches fire, is exposed to high heat, or is generating heat or gases, use large amounts of water to cool the battery. It can take approximately 3,000 gallons of water, applied directly to the battery, to fully extinguish and cool down a battery fire; always establish or request an additional water supply. If water is not immediately available, use dry chemicals, CO2, foam, or another typical fire-extinguishing agent to fight the fire until water is available. https://www.tesla.com/sites/default/files/downloads/2016_Model_S_Emergency_Response_Guide_en.pdf https://www.tesla.com/sites/default/files/downloads/2016_Mod...
- stephengillie 8y ago
  That much water is probably enough to react with all exposed lithium, while removing enough heat to prevent damage to other batteries or battery cases.
sandworm101 8y ago
There isn't enough lithium at play to worry about water+lithium fires. Not every battery cell is exposed. The water is needed to reduce temperature, to prevent undamaged cells from being cooked by the burning ones. Foam removes oxygen but that doesn't reduce the energy potential contained in the damaged cells It won't prevent them from cooking off their neighbours like water will. Water is also needed to unsure and carbon fiber doesn't burn, releasing all sorts of nasty stuff.
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
8y ago

Shivetya 8y ago

A Chevrolet Volt battery from a car used in crash testing caught fire while in storage [1] I know many are quick to dismiss battery fires "because petrol cars do it all the time" but that is not the issue. One key difference is a lithium battery fire produces toxic gases that are more dangerous [2] which are more dangerous to bystanders and first responders. A key reason these stories are noteworthy is because the technology is new and exciting. Plus many don't associate fires with batteries though Hollywood will likely provide an abundance of such excitement. So expect more stories of battery fires, especially surrounding AP accidents which are even more noteworthy but don't dismiss the issue because of petrol cars Now in that previously mentioned Volt fire there is mentioning of powering down a battery as one solution. Is that possible with the Tesla system, actually is that truly a solution? I suppose the real solution is special holding areas created to store battery packs and cars from wrecks. Probably will require manufacturer's to take ownership of them [1] https://www.popularmechanics.com/cars/hybrid-electric/a11865/the-straight-story-on-the-chevy-volt-battery-fire-6601217/ https://www.popularmechanics.com/cars/hybrid-electric/a11865... [2] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5577247/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5577247/

hamitron 8y ago

> The Model S, which was being driven by Barrett Riley, was traveling at 116mph three seconds before the collision What do you expect to happen when a lithium ion battery hits a wall at high speeds?

dsfyu404ed 8y ago

Batteries provide oxygen, fuel and a way to get that fuel hot enough to ignite (electrical energy) in close proximity. The higher the energy density the easier they will light up and the harder it is to put them out. Unless there's a fundamental breakthrough that allows us to use different materials to store electrical energy this is always going to happen from time to time. Only the most die-hard of fanboys ever claimed that having a bunch of lithium batteries on the floor of your vehicle was an improvement in safety over liquid fuels. All forms of energy storage are going to have the potential to destroy things by releasing that energy. The big difference between a bomb and energy suitable for conversion into mechanical power is time.

runako 8y ago

> his father had installed speed-control technology on his son's Model S to limit its maximum speed to 85mph Is there anywhere near Mountain View where it's legal to drive even 75mph, let alone 85mph?

kemiller 8y ago
Legal or not, 85 is the natural flow of traffic on Silicon Valley freeways when they're not congested.
- shaftway 8y ago
  There are plenty of times I've been on 280 and been uncomfortable doing 85; traffic was flowing at ~100 and I felt like an obstruction.

ebikelaw 8y ago

It’s amazing that we allow a car to be sold that can go this fast. They bothered to pass a law limiting electric bicycles to 28 MPH but my car will go 155. Why?

burger_moon 8y ago
Your point doesn't make sense. There's speed limits for cars too. My ebike does 45mph doesn't mean I'm allowed to go that fast.
- ebikelaw 8y ago
  If you own an e-bike that can exceed 28 MPH then it is unlawful in most jurisdictions to operate it on any bike lane or path, and you need a motorcycle license to operate it on a road. The equivalent law for cars would be if your car can exceed 45 MPH you’re not allowed to drive it in a school zone.

londons_explore 8y ago

The main cause of this accident seems to be doing 116 mph in a 30 mph speed limit zone... I can't really blame the design of the car for the fatalities in that case... The secondary fire isn't really preventable either - electric cars, due to their nature, contain batteries, and when those batteries are ripped apart in an accident, they might short circuit and catch fire. Recorvery crews need to know this, and leave the car somewhere it won't matter if it re-ignites.

nobleach 8y ago

116 mph in a 30 mph zone. Just wow.....

tonyquart 8y ago

Talking about these self-driving cars, I think there are still so many aspects that need to be fixed by the automakers. Until then, these cars should not be allowed to be operated on public roads. I have read an article that talks about this matter at https://www.lemberglaw.com/self-driving-autonomous-car-accident-injury-lawyers-attorneys/ https://www.lemberglaw.com/self-driving-autonomous-car-accid.... Hopefully the automakers will think seriously about this.