5 ms·

Cell carriers to stop sharing real-time cell phone location data

78 points by g8oz 8y ago

philbarr 8y ago
So are they selling access to the SS7 network? Or just a continually updated dataset?
TACIXAT 8y ago
This is awesome. I was seriously considering not carrying a cell phone over this.
- kyboren 8y ago
  You should seriously consider that once more. These carriers will use the narrowest possible interpretation of their statements. Historical location data appears to be fair game, and perhaps they'll just launch their own competing service so they aren't providing anything to a third party. These carriers all constantly record your location data and see it as another potential source of revenue. The law (in the US) does not prevent them from trading it, sharing it, selling it, targeting advertising using it, etc. They got caught with their hands in the cookie jar this time and are pretending to be really sorry about it so that the law stays that way, and they can go back to stealing cookies once this all dies down a bit. Don't for a second think that this means your location data will not be used against you in order for the carrier to make a quick buck.
ForHackernews 8y ago
I bet there's a whole bunch of caveats attached. How old is not "real-time" data? Can I buy where your phone was yesterday?
zkms 8y ago
Unless Locationsmart (and the other shady data brokers like "zumigo") goes under then it's pretty clear that there's some serious caveats in this alleged stopping of sharing location data.
- qop 8y ago
  These companies sometimes make deals at the app level, in order to get location data from phones that share it with their app(s). So not necessarily. But I like how you think.
mehrdadn 8y ago
Title seems misleading, because it doesn't seem like all carriers are stopping sharing location data... In T-Mobile's case, all they committed to doing was to "not sell customer location data to shady middlemen." I don't see how they would classify anybody they do business with as "shady middlemen", and I also don't see how they can't get around the word "sell" by finding a different way to share, so the commitment seems vacuous.
- colinbartlett 8y ago
  These announcements and the resulting press coverage have been very frustrating to me because it seems only that carriers committed to selling data directly to the end users, eliminating the middle man. One could argue they can (and will) control the ultimate destination this way. Or one could argue they will just take a bigger share of the pie without someone marking up the data in between.
  - munchbunny 8y ago
    Yup, coming from the ad industry, that's exactly what most of the ISP's are trying to do. They're trying to vertically integrate the middle man into themselves and sell to the advertisers directly. They're competing with the middle men.
- black_puppydog 8y ago
  also a bit weird that having to even mention that they don't sell to shady middlemen counts as good publicity. that kind of thing should go without saying, really.
  - mehrdadn 8y ago
    Honestly to me it sounds more like an admission that they used to sell data to shady middlemen.
- rektide 8y ago
  "Cell carriers to stop sharing real-time cell phone location data[... to literally everyone]" more like. Verizon will still supercookie the fuck out of you though. Your physical location data may be slightly more secure, but you are DEFINITELY for sale EVERYWHERE on the internet with Verizon Wireless.
walrus 8y ago
Yeah right. They'll find a way to sell it while claiming they don't share it.
- fma 8y ago
  Today: They won't sell real time data anymore. Tomorrow : Sell one minute delayed...
jamesholden 8y ago
Why was this even Ok in the first place? How did this get through the system? I thought you had to have warrants and things. While this is better news, it leads to questions others have pointed out.. such as what is considered real-time, and how old data could be to be not considered real-time, and sell that instead.
- c12 8y ago
  It's not ok. I can see the interest in it from a marketeers point of view being that you can target localised marketing to people so rather than a company thats 30 miles way you might see adverts for companies within walking distance. However on the flip side to that I think it's quite useless as realtime marketing because if someone is out looking for a post office, or somewhere to eat they are more likely to open their maps app and search or look around using their eyes and it's reasonable for the maps app to show location based information because thats what it does. Then we get to having data of where someone has been (non-realtime) which has similar benefits to marketeers but also poses the same serious privacy issues. I don't personally believe location data should be broadcast outside of the device without the users explicit knowledge of where it's going and why its being sent, e.g find my phone functionality, mapping apps, share location with a friend your meeting.
sandworm101 8y ago
What I don't understand is how difficult it is to get at this data for legitimate reasons. Any advertiser can find out when my phone drifts within sight of a Starbucks, but when a child, senior, or light aircraft goes missing suddenly this same data is hidden behind talk of warrants and privacy concerns. These companies could do much to legitimize themselves if they operated some sort of 'amber alert' outreach program.

78 points by g8oz 8y ago

philbarr 8y ago

So are they selling access to the SS7 network? Or just a continually updated dataset?

TACIXAT 8y ago

This is awesome. I was seriously considering not carrying a cell phone over this.

kyboren 8y ago
You should seriously consider that once more. These carriers will use the narrowest possible interpretation of their statements. Historical location data appears to be fair game, and perhaps they'll just launch their own competing service so they aren't providing anything to a third party. These carriers all constantly record your location data and see it as another potential source of revenue. The law (in the US) does not prevent them from trading it, sharing it, selling it, targeting advertising using it, etc. They got caught with their hands in the cookie jar this time and are pretending to be really sorry about it so that the law stays that way, and they can go back to stealing cookies once this all dies down a bit. Don't for a second think that this means your location data will not be used against you in order for the carrier to make a quick buck.

ForHackernews 8y ago

I bet there's a whole bunch of caveats attached. How old is not "real-time" data? Can I buy where your phone was yesterday?

zkms 8y ago

Unless Locationsmart (and the other shady data brokers like "zumigo") goes under then it's pretty clear that there's some serious caveats in this alleged stopping of sharing location data.

qop 8y ago
These companies sometimes make deals at the app level, in order to get location data from phones that share it with their app(s). So not necessarily. But I like how you think.

mehrdadn 8y ago

Title seems misleading, because it doesn't seem like all carriers are stopping sharing location data... In T-Mobile's case, all they committed to doing was to "not sell customer location data to shady middlemen." I don't see how they would classify anybody they do business with as "shady middlemen", and I also don't see how they can't get around the word "sell" by finding a different way to share, so the commitment seems vacuous.

colinbartlett 8y ago
These announcements and the resulting press coverage have been very frustrating to me because it seems only that carriers committed to selling data directly to the end users, eliminating the middle man. One could argue they can (and will) control the ultimate destination this way. Or one could argue they will just take a bigger share of the pie without someone marking up the data in between.
- munchbunny 8y ago
  Yup, coming from the ad industry, that's exactly what most of the ISP's are trying to do. They're trying to vertically integrate the middle man into themselves and sell to the advertisers directly. They're competing with the middle men.
black_puppydog 8y ago
also a bit weird that having to even mention that they don't sell to shady middlemen counts as good publicity. that kind of thing should go without saying, really.
- mehrdadn 8y ago
  Honestly to me it sounds more like an admission that they used to sell data to shady middlemen.
rektide 8y ago
"Cell carriers to stop sharing real-time cell phone location data[... to literally everyone]" more like. Verizon will still supercookie the fuck out of you though. Your physical location data may be slightly more secure, but you are DEFINITELY for sale EVERYWHERE on the internet with Verizon Wireless.

walrus 8y ago

Yeah right. They'll find a way to sell it while claiming they don't share it.

fma 8y ago
Today: They won't sell real time data anymore. Tomorrow : Sell one minute delayed...

jamesholden 8y ago

Why was this even Ok in the first place? How did this get through the system? I thought you had to have warrants and things. While this is better news, it leads to questions others have pointed out.. such as what is considered real-time, and how old data could be to be not considered real-time, and sell that instead.

c12 8y ago
It's not ok. I can see the interest in it from a marketeers point of view being that you can target localised marketing to people so rather than a company thats 30 miles way you might see adverts for companies within walking distance. However on the flip side to that I think it's quite useless as realtime marketing because if someone is out looking for a post office, or somewhere to eat they are more likely to open their maps app and search or look around using their eyes and it's reasonable for the maps app to show location based information because thats what it does. Then we get to having data of where someone has been (non-realtime) which has similar benefits to marketeers but also poses the same serious privacy issues. I don't personally believe location data should be broadcast outside of the device without the users explicit knowledge of where it's going and why its being sent, e.g find my phone functionality, mapping apps, share location with a friend your meeting.

sandworm101 8y ago

What I don't understand is how difficult it is to get at this data for legitimate reasons. Any advertiser can find out when my phone drifts within sight of a Starbucks, but when a child, senior, or light aircraft goes missing suddenly this same data is hidden behind talk of warrants and privacy concerns. These companies could do much to legitimize themselves if they operated some sort of 'amber alert' outreach program.