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I've noticed similar in some European cities in terms of an apparent higher average density. I've always attributed it to cities that have existed longer, and t

by ruytlm 8y ago

I've noticed similar in some European cities in terms of an apparent higher average density. I've always attributed it to cities that have existed longer, and that were already significantly more established by the time technology (bicycles, trains, cars) helped people commute further. In the absence of this technology, I've always assumed people tended to stay more local, which meant that cities ended up a cluster of local communities, rather than one large central district with a large number of commuters. That said, this seems to conflict with the example of Tokyo, which I understand was significantly rebuilt after the second world war.

boomboomsubban 8y ago
>That said, this seems to conflict with the example of Tokyo, which I understand was significantly rebuilt after the second world war. Roughly half of Tokyo was destroyed by US bombing, I'd imagine the practical and psychological result of this plays a large role in this phenomenon. And many European cities faced intense bombing in the war too, so there may be some link to what you saw.
- pjc50 8y ago
  > many European cities faced intense bombing There seem to have been two choices for the rebuilding: rebuild what was there, maybe with better trams and subways; or allow Modernist planners to take over and build Brutalist suburban car-centered systems. e.g. Coventry: https://www.theguardian.com/cities/2017/mar/14/brutal-inspiration-why-poets-are-writing-about-coventrys-ring-road#img-3 https://www.theguardian.com/cities/2017/mar/14/brutal-inspir... vs Dresden: https://www.gettyimages.co.uk/event/aerial-views-of-historic-dresden-533279087#landmarks-in-dresdens-historic-city-center-including-residenzschloss-picture-id463250700 https://www.gettyimages.co.uk/event/aerial-views-of-historic...
  - astrodust 8y ago
    Detroit may as well have suffered an Allied bombing campaign for the way it looks now.
eeZah7Ux 8y ago
I'm amazed that the author didn't include european cities in the comparison. There are many zoning laws to ensure that cities provide good quality of life by approximating the "urban village". This is done by keeping the density uniform and avoiding overly specialized areas like shopping malls, company campuses, sprawls and so on. It allows people to walk or use public transport for a short time for most of your daily needs. Of course there are economical ramifications: there are laws requiring a minimum building size, in order to provide housing at reasonable prices, instead of setting a maximum to make prices go up.
kwhitefoot 8y ago
European 'zoning' regulations don't necessarily forbid mixing shops, houses, light industry, bars, clubs, etc. This means that you can often find housing, work, entertainment and food within walking distance of each other. The US rules seem to encourage segregation; not just racial segregation but also segregation of the types of use to which buildings are put.
- oftenwrong 8y ago
  You are referring to "single-use zoning" or "Euclidean zoning" (named for the city in Ohio, which was named after the mathematician)
sevensor 8y ago
There's also the fact that, not only was Tokyo rebuilt after the war, but that it is continually being rebuilt in a way that U.S. cities aren't. My understanding is that there's a strong preference in Japan for living in newly constructed residences, which means that older housing stock is being replaced at a much higher rate than elsewhere.
- graphitezepp 8y ago
  There is a strong preference for new houses, add in their superstition where if someone dies in a house it might as well be considered unmarketable and you get a market where you have to always keep building.
rsynnott 8y ago
> I've noticed similar in some European cities in terms of an apparent higher average density. I've always attributed it to cities that have existed longer, and that were already significantly more established by the time technology (bicycles, trains, cars) helped people commute further. I don't think this is necessarily correct. Dublin is a fairly non-dense city by European standards, and always has been, but it is currently densifying, and the number of commuters using cars for their work commute is falling. The pattern in the previous bubble was increased sprawl, here, but densification definitely seems to be the way it's going now. There are all sorts of possible reasons for this; traffic has gotten worse, public transport has somewhat improved, and zoning rules require minimum densities in some places.
sien 8y ago
Many European cities were rebuilt without zoning in the 1800s and this is what we see today. Paris and London were rebuilt to the maximum height that was practical then. The rennovation - or destruction of old Paris really - was dramatic: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haussmann%27s_renovation_of_Paris https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haussmann%27s_renovation_of_Pa... It's mainly zoning since the 1970s that has caused prices to shoot up. If London was allowed to go up and out more prices wouldn't be do high. It's similar for central Paris.

by ruytlm 8y ago

boomboomsubban 8y ago

>That said, this seems to conflict with the example of Tokyo, which I understand was significantly rebuilt after the second world war. Roughly half of Tokyo was destroyed by US bombing, I'd imagine the practical and psychological result of this plays a large role in this phenomenon. And many European cities faced intense bombing in the war too, so there may be some link to what you saw.

pjc50 8y ago
> many European cities faced intense bombing There seem to have been two choices for the rebuilding: rebuild what was there, maybe with better trams and subways; or allow Modernist planners to take over and build Brutalist suburban car-centered systems. e.g. Coventry: https://www.theguardian.com/cities/2017/mar/14/brutal-inspiration-why-poets-are-writing-about-coventrys-ring-road#img-3 https://www.theguardian.com/cities/2017/mar/14/brutal-inspir... vs Dresden: https://www.gettyimages.co.uk/event/aerial-views-of-historic-dresden-533279087#landmarks-in-dresdens-historic-city-center-including-residenzschloss-picture-id463250700 https://www.gettyimages.co.uk/event/aerial-views-of-historic...
- astrodust 8y ago
  Detroit may as well have suffered an Allied bombing campaign for the way it looks now.

eeZah7Ux 8y ago

I'm amazed that the author didn't include european cities in the comparison. There are many zoning laws to ensure that cities provide good quality of life by approximating the "urban village". This is done by keeping the density uniform and avoiding overly specialized areas like shopping malls, company campuses, sprawls and so on. It allows people to walk or use public transport for a short time for most of your daily needs. Of course there are economical ramifications: there are laws requiring a minimum building size, in order to provide housing at reasonable prices, instead of setting a maximum to make prices go up.

kwhitefoot 8y ago

European 'zoning' regulations don't necessarily forbid mixing shops, houses, light industry, bars, clubs, etc. This means that you can often find housing, work, entertainment and food within walking distance of each other. The US rules seem to encourage segregation; not just racial segregation but also segregation of the types of use to which buildings are put.

oftenwrong 8y ago
You are referring to "single-use zoning" or "Euclidean zoning" (named for the city in Ohio, which was named after the mathematician)

sevensor 8y ago

There's also the fact that, not only was Tokyo rebuilt after the war, but that it is continually being rebuilt in a way that U.S. cities aren't. My understanding is that there's a strong preference in Japan for living in newly constructed residences, which means that older housing stock is being replaced at a much higher rate than elsewhere.

graphitezepp 8y ago
There is a strong preference for new houses, add in their superstition where if someone dies in a house it might as well be considered unmarketable and you get a market where you have to always keep building.

rsynnott 8y ago

> I've noticed similar in some European cities in terms of an apparent higher average density. I've always attributed it to cities that have existed longer, and that were already significantly more established by the time technology (bicycles, trains, cars) helped people commute further. I don't think this is necessarily correct. Dublin is a fairly non-dense city by European standards, and always has been, but it is currently densifying, and the number of commuters using cars for their work commute is falling. The pattern in the previous bubble was increased sprawl, here, but densification definitely seems to be the way it's going now. There are all sorts of possible reasons for this; traffic has gotten worse, public transport has somewhat improved, and zoning rules require minimum densities in some places.

sien 8y ago

Many European cities were rebuilt without zoning in the 1800s and this is what we see today. Paris and London were rebuilt to the maximum height that was practical then. The rennovation - or destruction of old Paris really - was dramatic: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haussmann%27s_renovation_of_Paris https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haussmann%27s_renovation_of_Pa... It's mainly zoning since the 1970s that has caused prices to shoot up. If London was allowed to go up and out more prices wouldn't be do high. It's similar for central Paris.