4 ms·

This is a perfect example of software engineers doing something extremely unethical, and shouldn’t be able to hide behind “I was just following orders”

by atonse 8y ago

falcolas 8y ago
I agree. But there are some who think this is the correct thing to do. Without a common standard for ethics within our industry, nationalism and patriotism will win out in enough cases that things like this will continue to occur. EDIT: Dislike and downvote all you want - it won't change that there are people out there who don't agree with your moral stance.
- wavefunction 8y ago
  >But there are some who think this is the correct thing Yeah well they are wrong. It's not a matter of opinion, at least not with this subject. What good is diagnostic software if you already know what the result will be? And taxpayers are paying for this sort of rigamarole? How are we to trust anything coming out of any of their mouths? ICE is completely unethical, thuggish, and a disgrace.
  - falcolas 8y ago
    There are some who believe killing anyone, even in a war to protect your own people is a great evil. Are they wrong? If you're a soldier protecting your own people, are you wrong? Morality depends on your culture, your beliefs, and your own sense of right and wrong. IOW, it's a bit more grey than you present. And whether you think they are wrong or not, it's what they believe.
    - anigbrowl 8y ago
      What is it you think these people believe? I don't mean that they're nationalist or what their attitudes on immigration are, but why they would edit a system to turn out a fake detention recommendation instead of merely changing their policy. There are well-established procedures for changing policy, but patching the risk management system seems like an attempt to circumvent such procedures.
Amezarak 8y ago
Well, this depends entirely on your ethics. According to the article, the system previously involved intensive, bureaucratic questioning of undocumented immigrants after which the system would come to some kind of decision. Since we're dealing with apprehended, undocumented immigrants, I would have no problem whatsoever changing the software to recommend detention. It certainly seems better than a semi-arbitrary decision no human can explain. The whole idea of letting them go and setting a court date seems preposterous, a waste of everyone's time and resources, and they aren't incentivized to go - if they're willing to enter the country illegally, why would they not be willing to miss a court date? It's just a circus, for show. The whole system is broken - why detain these people at all? They should be deported, not jailed and given a show trial. You may disagree, and that's fair. I would argue that nations have borders and nobody had a problem with this for centuries. You might argue the world is changing, open borders are the only just and fair thing due to human welfare concerns. But there is a reasonable debate to be had and it seems really glib to dismiss the engineers who did this as people who should be on a nuremberg trial.
- atonse 8y ago
  I don't actually disagree too much with what you're saying (regarding enforcing borders, etc). But why have a sham scoring system if you're just going to rig it? That's where the ethics come in. Because you bet your ass that they'd be using the score of this system to justify what are essentially racially motivated actions. There are arguments to be said that if a lot of these people had a legal way to enter and leave, they actually wouldn't stay the whole time. After all, most people want to be in their homeland and with their culture, and not always feel like second class citizens. But their need for jobs keeps them in a place like here.
- anigbrowl 8y ago
  If the outcome is predetermined why have the software and perform the evaluation at all? It's taking considerable time and resources to perpetuate a fakery. That's different from simply having a new policy of detaining everyone. Instead, ICE officers are pretending to gather information to make a decision whose outcome was decided in advance. Why is that?
threatofrain 8y ago
But by what mechanism does the software community achieve moral consensus? Otherwise I wouldn't just assume agreement except on the most basic things, in which case, you could get anyone else to agree with you.

This is a perfect example of software engineers doing something extremely unethical, and shouldn’t be able to hide behind “I was just following orders”

by atonse 8y ago

This is a perfect example of software engineers doing something extremely unethical, and shouldn’t be able to hide behind “I was just following orders”

falcolas 8y ago

I agree. But there are some who think this is the correct thing to do. Without a common standard for ethics within our industry, nationalism and patriotism will win out in enough cases that things like this will continue to occur. EDIT: Dislike and downvote all you want - it won't change that there are people out there who don't agree with your moral stance.

wavefunction 8y ago
>But there are some who think this is the correct thing Yeah well they are wrong. It's not a matter of opinion, at least not with this subject. What good is diagnostic software if you already know what the result will be? And taxpayers are paying for this sort of rigamarole? How are we to trust anything coming out of any of their mouths? ICE is completely unethical, thuggish, and a disgrace.
- falcolas 8y ago
  There are some who believe killing anyone, even in a war to protect your own people is a great evil. Are they wrong? If you're a soldier protecting your own people, are you wrong? Morality depends on your culture, your beliefs, and your own sense of right and wrong. IOW, it's a bit more grey than you present. And whether you think they are wrong or not, it's what they believe.
  - anigbrowl 8y ago
    What is it you think these people believe? I don't mean that they're nationalist or what their attitudes on immigration are, but why they would edit a system to turn out a fake detention recommendation instead of merely changing their policy. There are well-established procedures for changing policy, but patching the risk management system seems like an attempt to circumvent such procedures.

Amezarak 8y ago

Well, this depends entirely on your ethics. According to the article, the system previously involved intensive, bureaucratic questioning of undocumented immigrants after which the system would come to some kind of decision. Since we're dealing with apprehended, undocumented immigrants, I would have no problem whatsoever changing the software to recommend detention. It certainly seems better than a semi-arbitrary decision no human can explain. The whole idea of letting them go and setting a court date seems preposterous, a waste of everyone's time and resources, and they aren't incentivized to go - if they're willing to enter the country illegally, why would they not be willing to miss a court date? It's just a circus, for show. The whole system is broken - why detain these people at all? They should be deported, not jailed and given a show trial. You may disagree, and that's fair. I would argue that nations have borders and nobody had a problem with this for centuries. You might argue the world is changing, open borders are the only just and fair thing due to human welfare concerns. But there is a reasonable debate to be had and it seems really glib to dismiss the engineers who did this as people who should be on a nuremberg trial.

atonse 8y ago
I don't actually disagree too much with what you're saying (regarding enforcing borders, etc). But why have a sham scoring system if you're just going to rig it? That's where the ethics come in. Because you bet your ass that they'd be using the score of this system to justify what are essentially racially motivated actions. There are arguments to be said that if a lot of these people had a legal way to enter and leave, they actually wouldn't stay the whole time. After all, most people want to be in their homeland and with their culture, and not always feel like second class citizens. But their need for jobs keeps them in a place like here.
anigbrowl 8y ago
If the outcome is predetermined why have the software and perform the evaluation at all? It's taking considerable time and resources to perpetuate a fakery. That's different from simply having a new policy of detaining everyone. Instead, ICE officers are pretending to gather information to make a decision whose outcome was decided in advance. Why is that?

threatofrain 8y ago

But by what mechanism does the software community achieve moral consensus? Otherwise I wouldn't just assume agreement except on the most basic things, in which case, you could get anyone else to agree with you.