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You're conflating two things. I said determinism in math, while you want to know about the universe. Randomness only means that you can't determine the source

You're conflating two things. I said determinism in math, while you want to know about the universe. Randomness only means that you can't determine the source of the determinism. Rolling a die might well be a perfectly deterministic event, and indeed, people can learn how to roll dice in a deterministic way. But done the normal way, and you get a random result, you're not going to be able to predetermine the outcome, at least not at speeds that would be useful.

coldtea 8y ago
>You're conflating two things. I said determinism in math, while you want to know about the universe. Well, your phrase was "determinism is math is countered by randomness". Since there's no randomness in math, the only logical way to interpret what you wrote would be to mean "determinism is math is countered by randomness [in the universe]". >But done the normal way, and you get a random result, you're not going to be able to predetermine the outcome, at least not at speeds that would be useful. Well, dice roll results are not math. We can use math to calculate their probabilities, but any randomness in dice rolls, if there is indeed any, is in the universe, not in the math we use.
- vinceguidry 8y ago
  You're constraining the concept of math in a way that nobody really does, is not useful to the discussion, and isn't intended by the article, which does attempt to reduce things like dice results, indeed the entire universe, to math.
  - coldtea 8y ago
    >You're constraining the concept of math in a way that nobody really does Really? I'd say that everybody, and every textbook I've ever seen uses the same definition. The one additional distinction people disagree on is whether math is just the theorems, proofs, etc we've already described, or if math can be thought of as encompassing all possible maths (the latter being the so-called platonic view of math). Considering dice results and their randomness (or lack thereof) as math (as opposed to something that we can use math to calculate the probabilities of) or considering the "entire universe" as math is not really a common interpretation. I'd say that it's your view instead that few have in mind when speaking about math. People do say that mathematical principle underline physical laws and goings on inside the universe, but not that the universe is math itself.

coldtea 8y ago

>You're conflating two things. I said determinism in math, while you want to know about the universe. Well, your phrase was "determinism is math is countered by randomness". Since there's no randomness in math, the only logical way to interpret what you wrote would be to mean "determinism is math is countered by randomness [in the universe]". >But done the normal way, and you get a random result, you're not going to be able to predetermine the outcome, at least not at speeds that would be useful. Well, dice roll results are not math. We can use math to calculate their probabilities, but any randomness in dice rolls, if there is indeed any, is in the universe, not in the math we use.

vinceguidry 8y ago
You're constraining the concept of math in a way that nobody really does, is not useful to the discussion, and isn't intended by the article, which does attempt to reduce things like dice results, indeed the entire universe, to math.
- coldtea 8y ago
  >You're constraining the concept of math in a way that nobody really does Really? I'd say that everybody, and every textbook I've ever seen uses the same definition. The one additional distinction people disagree on is whether math is just the theorems, proofs, etc we've already described, or if math can be thought of as encompassing all possible maths (the latter being the so-called platonic view of math). Considering dice results and their randomness (or lack thereof) as math (as opposed to something that we can use math to calculate the probabilities of) or considering the "entire universe" as math is not really a common interpretation. I'd say that it's your view instead that few have in mind when speaking about math. People do say that mathematical principle underline physical laws and goings on inside the universe, but not that the universe is math itself.