6 ms·

The Board Game at the Heart of Viking Culture

110 points by bcaulfield 8y ago

mrec 8y ago
It's an interesting game, mostly because unlike most modern games it's massively asymmetrical. Goals, strategies and attitudes are very different for the two players, and despite the numerical lopsidedness in pieces it's much easier to win as the defender, and a slow cautious style is much more important for the attacker. See Fetlar Hnefatafl for a modern codification of the (very vague) historical rules: http://tafl.cyningstan.com/page/88/fetlar-hnefatafl http://tafl.cyningstan.com/page/88/fetlar-hnefatafl
- kwhitefoot 8y ago
  Sounds a bit like Thud in which each player has to take a turn playing each side. See https://wiki.lspace.org/mediawiki/Thud https://wiki.lspace.org/mediawiki/Thud.
  - UnderProtest 8y ago
    It does sound a bit like Thud, doesn't it? From your link: Thud is a board game based on the earlier dwarfish game of Hnaflbaflsniflwhifltafl. It is played mainly by Dwarfs and Trolls... The game itself echos the game played by Vikings and Anglo-Saxons "Hnafletafle"- which literally means "Kings Table". Hnafletafle echos go beyond just the name. Like 'Thud' it is unusual in that it is an 'asymmetrical' game... In that Thud is a parody of it.
    - YeGoblynQueenne 8y ago
      Note that Thud! is a real-world version of the game, that is never precisely described in the books. Er, as far as I remember :)
- DrHuman 8y ago
  I actually wrote a toy app recently following the Fetlar rules as a React exercise: https://htafl.herokuapp.com/ https://htafl.herokuapp.com/ Not sure how it renders across machines but it looks ok on my Mac.
  - mrec 8y ago
    Yeah, I did the same (VanillaJS) a couple of years back, and started thinking about implementing a computer opponent, but it's really not clear what the evaluation function should be.
    - formalsystem 8y ago
      You need only codify the victory and loss conditions to build an AI using standard Reinforcement learning algorithms. Feel free to message me if you want more detail on how this would work. We should be able to hammer something out in less than a day.
      - mrec 8y ago
        Thanks for the pointer, but I'm afraid I have zero knowledge of ML and wouldn't be any help. I have to say I'm a bit sceptical that this approach can work purely based on win/loss conditions - an attacker victory in particular can often take hundreds of moves in Tafl games.
    - DrHuman 8y ago
      Agreed. The only thing I could think to do would be look for pieces to capture in any given turn, but that would never get it to an end game condition. It's beyond my current capabilities to make a proper computer opponent, but it would be a good exercise.
      - mrec 8y ago
        > look for pieces to capture in any given turn Not as a general rule. If you're playing as the attacker, you don't always want to take defender pieces even if they're "free" - they're more useful boxing their own king in.
- zjacobi 8y ago
  I've played it a few times with friends and I have to agree the defenders have an easier time (although it certainly feels more intimidating to play the defender). I think defenders heavily benefit from most people's familiarity with chess. It's very easy to distract someone with pieces they can capture, then sneak your king out the side.
cjslep 8y ago
How many modern games are two-player asymmetrical? I only know of Android: Netrunner. I hope we can continue learning more concrete rules for the ancient version of this game. It would be nice to have its history understood like chess'.
- jamesgeck0 8y ago
  Steve Jackson Games first title was _Ogre_, a tactics game that pit an entire army against a single super unit. Mr. Jack is another reasonably popular modern one. The asymmetric tag on Board Game Geek is probably a good place to start. https://boardgamegeek.com/tag/asymmetric/page/1 https://boardgamegeek.com/tag/asymmetric/page/1
  - harlanlewis 8y ago
    Love board game geek. A little buried on that page is a link to ranked list of asymmetric games: https://boardgamegeek.com/geeklist/82677/asymmetric-games https://boardgamegeek.com/geeklist/82677/asymmetric-games
- smogcutter 8y ago
  Wargames come to mind, both in board game and miniatures/tabletop form. There are loads, but here's an example: https://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/62222/commands-colors-napoleonics https://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/62222/commands-colors-na...
- formalsystem 8y ago
  I believe Viking chess is the first recorded example of an asymmetrical game. In more modern times, many RTS games are asymmetrical: think SC2, Dota etc.. If you're thinking about board games, in particular, there's games like Terra Mystica or most miniature games that are designed with a vast number of factions that have differing goals. Asymmetrical games are in fact hugely popular because they let people roleplay strategies that they may think are more fun
- a1369209993 8y ago
  Strictly speaking most modern (two-player) games are two-player asymmetrical, since one player has a first-mover advantage. Not what you meant of course, but worth considering; it's somewhat hard to make a game that's strictly symmetric.
jonhendry18 8y ago
There was a game called "Ragnarok" for the NeXT, which I believe was a version of this.
YeGoblynQueenne 8y ago
Hnefatafl (and possibly other, similar games) inspired a fictional game played in Terry Pratchett's Discworld novels, Going Postal and Thud!. From wikipedia: The game, supposedly called in Dwarfish "Hnaflbaflwhiflsnifltafl" (a reference to the Viking game Hnefatafl which it resembles), represents the famous "Battle of Koom Valley" between dwarfs and trolls. The game was first directly referenced in Going Postal, being played by Vetinari, and became a central concept in the immediate sequel Thud!. (...) Terry Pratchett devised a fictional history of how Thud was invented similar to the Shahnama theory of the origins of chess. In short, the clever dwarf who invented the game was asked by his king to name his reward. The answer was that he wanted his board filled with gold: One small gold piece on the first square, two pieces on the second, four pieces on the third, etc. Needless to say, this is more than all the gold of the Disc combined. The king then got angry and threatened to kill the dwarf who was 'too drhg'hgin clever by half'. The inventor then hastily changed his reward to 'as much gold as he could carry', whereupon the king agreed and simply broke one of his arms. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Games_of_the_Discworld#Thud https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Games_of_the_Discworld#Thud

110 points by bcaulfield 8y ago

mrec 8y ago

It's an interesting game, mostly because unlike most modern games it's massively asymmetrical. Goals, strategies and attitudes are very different for the two players, and despite the numerical lopsidedness in pieces it's much easier to win as the defender, and a slow cautious style is much more important for the attacker. See Fetlar Hnefatafl for a modern codification of the (very vague) historical rules: http://tafl.cyningstan.com/page/88/fetlar-hnefatafl http://tafl.cyningstan.com/page/88/fetlar-hnefatafl

kwhitefoot 8y ago
Sounds a bit like Thud in which each player has to take a turn playing each side. See https://wiki.lspace.org/mediawiki/Thud https://wiki.lspace.org/mediawiki/Thud.
- UnderProtest 8y ago
  It does sound a bit like Thud, doesn't it? From your link: Thud is a board game based on the earlier dwarfish game of Hnaflbaflsniflwhifltafl. It is played mainly by Dwarfs and Trolls... The game itself echos the game played by Vikings and Anglo-Saxons "Hnafletafle"- which literally means "Kings Table". Hnafletafle echos go beyond just the name. Like 'Thud' it is unusual in that it is an 'asymmetrical' game... In that Thud is a parody of it.
  - YeGoblynQueenne 8y ago
    Note that Thud! is a real-world version of the game, that is never precisely described in the books. Er, as far as I remember :)
DrHuman 8y ago
I actually wrote a toy app recently following the Fetlar rules as a React exercise: https://htafl.herokuapp.com/ https://htafl.herokuapp.com/ Not sure how it renders across machines but it looks ok on my Mac.
- mrec 8y ago
  Yeah, I did the same (VanillaJS) a couple of years back, and started thinking about implementing a computer opponent, but it's really not clear what the evaluation function should be.
  - formalsystem 8y ago
    You need only codify the victory and loss conditions to build an AI using standard Reinforcement learning algorithms. Feel free to message me if you want more detail on how this would work. We should be able to hammer something out in less than a day.
    - mrec 8y ago
      Thanks for the pointer, but I'm afraid I have zero knowledge of ML and wouldn't be any help. I have to say I'm a bit sceptical that this approach can work purely based on win/loss conditions - an attacker victory in particular can often take hundreds of moves in Tafl games.
  - DrHuman 8y ago
    Agreed. The only thing I could think to do would be look for pieces to capture in any given turn, but that would never get it to an end game condition. It's beyond my current capabilities to make a proper computer opponent, but it would be a good exercise.
    - mrec 8y ago
      > look for pieces to capture in any given turn Not as a general rule. If you're playing as the attacker, you don't always want to take defender pieces even if they're "free" - they're more useful boxing their own king in.
zjacobi 8y ago
I've played it a few times with friends and I have to agree the defenders have an easier time (although it certainly feels more intimidating to play the defender). I think defenders heavily benefit from most people's familiarity with chess. It's very easy to distract someone with pieces they can capture, then sneak your king out the side.

cjslep 8y ago

How many modern games are two-player asymmetrical? I only know of Android: Netrunner. I hope we can continue learning more concrete rules for the ancient version of this game. It would be nice to have its history understood like chess'.

jamesgeck0 8y ago
Steve Jackson Games first title was _Ogre_, a tactics game that pit an entire army against a single super unit. Mr. Jack is another reasonably popular modern one. The asymmetric tag on Board Game Geek is probably a good place to start. https://boardgamegeek.com/tag/asymmetric/page/1 https://boardgamegeek.com/tag/asymmetric/page/1
- harlanlewis 8y ago
  Love board game geek. A little buried on that page is a link to ranked list of asymmetric games: https://boardgamegeek.com/geeklist/82677/asymmetric-games https://boardgamegeek.com/geeklist/82677/asymmetric-games
smogcutter 8y ago
Wargames come to mind, both in board game and miniatures/tabletop form. There are loads, but here's an example: https://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/62222/commands-colors-napoleonics https://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/62222/commands-colors-na...
formalsystem 8y ago
I believe Viking chess is the first recorded example of an asymmetrical game. In more modern times, many RTS games are asymmetrical: think SC2, Dota etc.. If you're thinking about board games, in particular, there's games like Terra Mystica or most miniature games that are designed with a vast number of factions that have differing goals. Asymmetrical games are in fact hugely popular because they let people roleplay strategies that they may think are more fun
a1369209993 8y ago
Strictly speaking most modern (two-player) games are two-player asymmetrical, since one player has a first-mover advantage. Not what you meant of course, but worth considering; it's somewhat hard to make a game that's strictly symmetric.

jonhendry18 8y ago

There was a game called "Ragnarok" for the NeXT, which I believe was a version of this.

YeGoblynQueenne 8y ago

Hnefatafl (and possibly other, similar games) inspired a fictional game played in Terry Pratchett's Discworld novels, Going Postal and Thud!. From wikipedia: The game, supposedly called in Dwarfish "Hnaflbaflwhiflsnifltafl" (a reference to the Viking game Hnefatafl which it resembles), represents the famous "Battle of Koom Valley" between dwarfs and trolls. The game was first directly referenced in Going Postal, being played by Vetinari, and became a central concept in the immediate sequel Thud!. (...) Terry Pratchett devised a fictional history of how Thud was invented similar to the Shahnama theory of the origins of chess. In short, the clever dwarf who invented the game was asked by his king to name his reward. The answer was that he wanted his board filled with gold: One small gold piece on the first square, two pieces on the second, four pieces on the third, etc. Needless to say, this is more than all the gold of the Disc combined. The king then got angry and threatened to kill the dwarf who was 'too drhg'hgin clever by half'. The inventor then hastily changed his reward to 'as much gold as he could carry', whereupon the king agreed and simply broke one of his arms. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Games_of_the_Discworld#Thud https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Games_of_the_Discworld#Thud