4 ms·

> But subjectivity could very well be an illusion. This sounds like a contradiction. What is being illuded? If there is no subject, there can't be an illusion.

naasking 8y ago
Man, If I had a nickel every time someone used that reply... > If there is no subject, there can't be an illusion. A common misconception, but incorrect. An illusion is simply a fact that, when taken at face value, entails a false conclusion. There is no reason a computer system can't be deceived by an illusion too, even one without "consciousness".
- throwaway37585 8y ago
  > Man, If I had a nickel every time someone used that reply... Perhaps the reason you see it so frequently is because it's obvious? > An illusion is simply a fact that, when taken at face value, entails a false conclusion. An illusion is simply what fact? What does it mean to take it at "face value"? What "false conclusion" does it entail? > There is no reason a computer system can't be deceived by an illusion too, even one without "consciousness". I think you're equivocating here. What definition of illusion are you using?
  - naasking 8y ago
    > An illusion is simply what fact? What does it mean to take it at "face value"? What "false conclusion" does it entail? A fact is an observation, a sensory input, a measurement, etc. The observation of a pencil in water [1], if taken at face value, entails a false conclusion. If instead such a fact were integrated into a larger set of facts from which we infer a coherent picture of reality, a very different conclusion emerges. No part of the above depends upon any sort of subject. > I think you're equivocating here. What definition of illusion are you using? I'm not. I'm using the same definition that I provided to you, namely that an illusion is a fact that naively entails a false conclusion. If you want a dictionary.com definition, "something that deceives by producing a false or misleading impression of reality". Of course, you could jump on "deceives" again with some unnecessary appeal to subjectivity, which is why I say "entails a false conclusion" instead. [1] https://pixabay.com/en/pencil-bent-pencil-pencil-in-water-2403662/ https://pixabay.com/en/pencil-bent-pencil-pencil-in-water-24...

naasking 8y ago

Man, If I had a nickel every time someone used that reply... > If there is no subject, there can't be an illusion. A common misconception, but incorrect. An illusion is simply a fact that, when taken at face value, entails a false conclusion. There is no reason a computer system can't be deceived by an illusion too, even one without "consciousness".

throwaway37585 8y ago
> Man, If I had a nickel every time someone used that reply... Perhaps the reason you see it so frequently is because it's obvious? > An illusion is simply a fact that, when taken at face value, entails a false conclusion. An illusion is simply what fact? What does it mean to take it at "face value"? What "false conclusion" does it entail? > There is no reason a computer system can't be deceived by an illusion too, even one without "consciousness". I think you're equivocating here. What definition of illusion are you using?
- naasking 8y ago
  > An illusion is simply what fact? What does it mean to take it at "face value"? What "false conclusion" does it entail? A fact is an observation, a sensory input, a measurement, etc. The observation of a pencil in water [1], if taken at face value, entails a false conclusion. If instead such a fact were integrated into a larger set of facts from which we infer a coherent picture of reality, a very different conclusion emerges. No part of the above depends upon any sort of subject. > I think you're equivocating here. What definition of illusion are you using? I'm not. I'm using the same definition that I provided to you, namely that an illusion is a fact that naively entails a false conclusion. If you want a dictionary.com definition, "something that deceives by producing a false or misleading impression of reality". Of course, you could jump on "deceives" again with some unnecessary appeal to subjectivity, which is why I say "entails a false conclusion" instead. [1] https://pixabay.com/en/pencil-bent-pencil-pencil-in-water-2403662/ https://pixabay.com/en/pencil-bent-pencil-pencil-in-water-24...