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I can use a sledgehammer to break my leg, but that doesn't mean the hammer is broken by design. I just have to be careful where I swing the hammer and what I hi

I can use a sledgehammer to break my leg, but that doesn't mean the hammer is broken by design. I just have to be careful where I swing the hammer and what I hit with it.

ehaliewicz2 8y ago
That's a poor analogy. It calls itself a string function but isn't. So it's more like a airsoft gun that actually shoots bullets, but you don't know until you decide to shoot yourself in the leg to see what it feels like.
simias 8y ago
If the sledgehammer defaults to "leg breaking mode" then it's broken. How often do you actually use strncpy actually intending it not to return a non-NUL terminated string on truncation? I hate this mentality in a lot of C circles that boils down to "there's no bad language, just bad programmers, man up pussy". I like C, I use it a lot, it's one of the first languages I learned and it's been my main "professional" language for more than a decade. Yet I can also see that it has many unnecessary sore points. Having switch not break by default, gets(), array shenanigans, some aliasing rules, the hundreds of completely different meanings for "static", macro hygiene and I could go on... You can say "it's not a big deal and it's not going to change at that point anyway" and sure, I'm not arguing for a revolution, but let's not act that it's an absolutely perfect language and I'm an idiot that doesn't get it for pointing out these issues.
- int0x80 8y ago
  Absolutely. strncpy is a very badly designed interface. Is it documented? Yes. Does that make it any good? No. Principle of least surprise. Idiot proof. Semantics that match common usage. Call it what you like.
- jschwartzi 8y ago
  I'm not arguing that it's a completely perfect language. But broken is an incredibly strong word for something that works when used as described in the documentation. I think the API designer was trying to be parsimonious and not assume too much about what you want to do with the data in your destination buffer. The requirement was to provide buffer overrun protection when the source string is too large, and this function provides that. Beyond that, the requirement that the character array be null-terminated is your decision. In fact, if you determine that it isn't null-terminated you can do other things besides null terminate it yourself. You might want to provide a helpful error message to consumers of your API rather than truncating their input data silently. Or you may try reallocating your buffer until the string fits. There's actual error handling that you can do with this function. In contrast, automatically null terminating the string makes that more difficult. The other issues that you have with C seem like preferences. There's nothing wrong with not breaking by default in a switch statement as long as you know that that's what happens.
- wruza 8y ago
  Sledgehammer defaults to nothing, it just lies around before someone takes it and makes an action. You're basically saying that if a label on the tool misleads you, then you're not in charge and the tool is broken. That doesn't work in engineering, nor is it forgivable to not meet all formal requirements (like reading the documentation thoroughly). You have to look at your tool to find its best fit or at least to find a handle; moreover, labels mean nothing - they are just nicknames for synopsis. Who thinks otherwise should consider javascript or alikes. We live in a world where labels create the entire meaning, but let's not fall into this idiocy in workplaces. The linux manual for strncpy makes few good notes about its usage and that has a meaning, since it is official and will not change due someone ranting about something again.

I can use a sledgehammer to break my leg, but that doesn't mean the hammer is broken by design. I just have to be careful where I swing the hammer and what I hit with it.

ehaliewicz2 8y ago

That's a poor analogy. It calls itself a string function but isn't. So it's more like a airsoft gun that actually shoots bullets, but you don't know until you decide to shoot yourself in the leg to see what it feels like.

simias 8y ago

If the sledgehammer defaults to "leg breaking mode" then it's broken. How often do you actually use strncpy actually intending it not to return a non-NUL terminated string on truncation? I hate this mentality in a lot of C circles that boils down to "there's no bad language, just bad programmers, man up pussy". I like C, I use it a lot, it's one of the first languages I learned and it's been my main "professional" language for more than a decade. Yet I can also see that it has many unnecessary sore points. Having switch not break by default, gets(), array shenanigans, some aliasing rules, the hundreds of completely different meanings for "static", macro hygiene and I could go on... You can say "it's not a big deal and it's not going to change at that point anyway" and sure, I'm not arguing for a revolution, but let's not act that it's an absolutely perfect language and I'm an idiot that doesn't get it for pointing out these issues.

int0x80 8y ago
Absolutely. strncpy is a very badly designed interface. Is it documented? Yes. Does that make it any good? No. Principle of least surprise. Idiot proof. Semantics that match common usage. Call it what you like.
jschwartzi 8y ago
I'm not arguing that it's a completely perfect language. But broken is an incredibly strong word for something that works when used as described in the documentation. I think the API designer was trying to be parsimonious and not assume too much about what you want to do with the data in your destination buffer. The requirement was to provide buffer overrun protection when the source string is too large, and this function provides that. Beyond that, the requirement that the character array be null-terminated is your decision. In fact, if you determine that it isn't null-terminated you can do other things besides null terminate it yourself. You might want to provide a helpful error message to consumers of your API rather than truncating their input data silently. Or you may try reallocating your buffer until the string fits. There's actual error handling that you can do with this function. In contrast, automatically null terminating the string makes that more difficult. The other issues that you have with C seem like preferences. There's nothing wrong with not breaking by default in a switch statement as long as you know that that's what happens.
wruza 8y ago
Sledgehammer defaults to nothing, it just lies around before someone takes it and makes an action. You're basically saying that if a label on the tool misleads you, then you're not in charge and the tool is broken. That doesn't work in engineering, nor is it forgivable to not meet all formal requirements (like reading the documentation thoroughly). You have to look at your tool to find its best fit or at least to find a handle; moreover, labels mean nothing - they are just nicknames for synopsis. Who thinks otherwise should consider javascript or alikes. We live in a world where labels create the entire meaning, but let's not fall into this idiocy in workplaces. The linux manual for strncpy makes few good notes about its usage and that has a meaning, since it is official and will not change due someone ranting about something again.