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You're confusing waste that is properly disposed of with waste that is not. The problem is waste that is improperly disposed of and neither of those are solutio

by dd36 8y ago

You're confusing waste that is properly disposed of with waste that is not. The problem is waste that is improperly disposed of and neither of those are solutions to that problem.

lurquer 8y ago
That's correct. Indians litter. It's a cultural thing, I guess. Filthiest place on earth. (Don't downvoted me unless you have been to India.) It's sad that the solution is to ban plastic bags and the like... I'm not against the solution. But, the problem is Indians who think nothing of tossing trash out into the street and would be genuinely confused if you suggested they clean up after themselves.
- ryandrake 8y ago
  I’m not sure I buy the “it’s cultural” argument. I’ve been to India and to plenty of other places, and there is a littering problem everywhere. It seems to be worse wherever there are lots of people and mediocre rule of law. I don’t think any one culture instinctively litters more than any other.
  - thecrazyone 8y ago
    TIL littering is a common thing in multiple countries (not sarcastic)
  - dd36 8y ago
    I hypothesize it's a poverty thing. When you're poor, why would you care about plastic waste. You're worried about your next meal.
- retreatguru 8y ago
  I’ve been to India many times, and it’s true most people there litter without much thought. Once while ‘adapting myself to the culture’ I threw a plastic water bottle away on a street corner that was already heavy with garbage; and just then an elderly Indian man chastised me for littering!
- thecrazyone 8y ago
  I'm from India. ## Problem 1: The problem is not culture, but of poor govt. I as a responsible person want to throw this wrapper, there is no dustbin you'll find for kilometers on end sometimes. Do you expect me to carry the wrapper back to my home or carry a small dustbin along with me every time? ## Problem 2: You would've noticed, most Indian homes are pretty clean (within reason and corresponding to income level). This is because we care for our private property. Govt is a body which owns public property and doesn't take care of roads and streets (which are public property). This will refute your claim that this is an issue of culture (because we keep our private property, houses, hotels, malls, etc clean). ## Solution (proposed): This is going to be against mainstream and HN views. 1) Privatize roads and streets (takes care of problem 2) 2) Privatize waste collection (takes care of problem 1) But we won't do it anytime soon, because reasons (we'll I know the reasons, but just don't want to type them down here).
  - deaps 8y ago
    > Do you expect me to carry the wrapper back to my home or carry a small dustbin along with me every time? Yes...That's what I would do, and I don't even remotely consider myself an 'environmentally-conscious' person whatsoever.
  - dd36 8y ago
    3) Tax plastic and use those taxes to pay for bins and removal. This has the dual effect of incentivizing the use of less plastic and paying for clean up.
    - srean 8y ago
      I really wish taxation was more p2p. In India this process will stop at tax collection. The collected tax will not end up where it was meant to.
  - lurquer 8y ago
    >Do you expect me to carry the wrapper back to my home or carry a small dustbin along with me every time? Yes. I don't know you and my comment isn't directed to you. But this is what I meant by 'confused' in my post... It seems many from that culture genuinely think it is absurd to clean up after oneself. The distinction between public and private property has no bearing on how a westerner feels about littering. Indeed, a westerner would be LESS inclined to litter on public property than on his own. In the West, when one drops a piece of paper or bottle, the thought is (or should be) that you are making life harder for someone else who will eventually have to pick it up. It's the reason you can rely on Westerners, generally, to clean their own tables and toss out their own trash at fast food restaurants. (Or at least briefly feel guilty about it if they don't). It's the reason you can rely on Westerners to return their grocery carts to the collection points. It's empathy... we don't want to make life harder for the poor worker. I do not believe this feeling of empathy is pervasive in Indian cultures... maybe just a left-over from the caste system...
theptip 8y ago
I don't think jdietrich is confusing anything; they explicitly said: > Plastic packaging doesn't spontaneously release itself into the ecosystem, it's put there by someone irresponsibly managing waste. They are (correctly, IMO) pointing out that this is a classic case of missing the root cause; it's a commonly held position that plastic containers are inherently bad for the environment, and that position leads to laws like the one in the OP. My read of jdietrich's posts was that a more nuanced approach would be more optimal; the problem is not plastic containers per se, it's poor disposal. Keep in mind that India has less well developed infrastructure than Norway and the Netherlands, and so it's much harder to dispose of waste properly. More investment in this sort of service might be a better long-run strategy in terms of national cost/benefit. (Or it might not, depending on how much it would cost to improve the infrastructure; but the discussion about whether it's a good idea should make an analysis on that point.)
- dd36 8y ago
  Yes, it doesn’t spontaneously release itself. The solutions he then linked to don’t address the core issue. We know how to properly dispose of plastic.

by dd36 8y ago

You're confusing waste that is properly disposed of with waste that is not. The problem is waste that is improperly disposed of and neither of those are solutions to that problem.

lurquer 8y ago

That's correct. Indians litter. It's a cultural thing, I guess. Filthiest place on earth. (Don't downvoted me unless you have been to India.) It's sad that the solution is to ban plastic bags and the like... I'm not against the solution. But, the problem is Indians who think nothing of tossing trash out into the street and would be genuinely confused if you suggested they clean up after themselves.

ryandrake 8y ago
I’m not sure I buy the “it’s cultural” argument. I’ve been to India and to plenty of other places, and there is a littering problem everywhere. It seems to be worse wherever there are lots of people and mediocre rule of law. I don’t think any one culture instinctively litters more than any other.
- thecrazyone 8y ago
  TIL littering is a common thing in multiple countries (not sarcastic)
- dd36 8y ago
  I hypothesize it's a poverty thing. When you're poor, why would you care about plastic waste. You're worried about your next meal.
retreatguru 8y ago
I’ve been to India many times, and it’s true most people there litter without much thought. Once while ‘adapting myself to the culture’ I threw a plastic water bottle away on a street corner that was already heavy with garbage; and just then an elderly Indian man chastised me for littering!
thecrazyone 8y ago
I'm from India. ## Problem 1: The problem is not culture, but of poor govt. I as a responsible person want to throw this wrapper, there is no dustbin you'll find for kilometers on end sometimes. Do you expect me to carry the wrapper back to my home or carry a small dustbin along with me every time? ## Problem 2: You would've noticed, most Indian homes are pretty clean (within reason and corresponding to income level). This is because we care for our private property. Govt is a body which owns public property and doesn't take care of roads and streets (which are public property). This will refute your claim that this is an issue of culture (because we keep our private property, houses, hotels, malls, etc clean). ## Solution (proposed): This is going to be against mainstream and HN views. 1) Privatize roads and streets (takes care of problem 2) 2) Privatize waste collection (takes care of problem 1) But we won't do it anytime soon, because reasons (we'll I know the reasons, but just don't want to type them down here).
- deaps 8y ago
  > Do you expect me to carry the wrapper back to my home or carry a small dustbin along with me every time? Yes...That's what I would do, and I don't even remotely consider myself an 'environmentally-conscious' person whatsoever.
- dd36 8y ago
  3) Tax plastic and use those taxes to pay for bins and removal. This has the dual effect of incentivizing the use of less plastic and paying for clean up.
  - srean 8y ago
    I really wish taxation was more p2p. In India this process will stop at tax collection. The collected tax will not end up where it was meant to.
- lurquer 8y ago
  >Do you expect me to carry the wrapper back to my home or carry a small dustbin along with me every time? Yes. I don't know you and my comment isn't directed to you. But this is what I meant by 'confused' in my post... It seems many from that culture genuinely think it is absurd to clean up after oneself. The distinction between public and private property has no bearing on how a westerner feels about littering. Indeed, a westerner would be LESS inclined to litter on public property than on his own. In the West, when one drops a piece of paper or bottle, the thought is (or should be) that you are making life harder for someone else who will eventually have to pick it up. It's the reason you can rely on Westerners, generally, to clean their own tables and toss out their own trash at fast food restaurants. (Or at least briefly feel guilty about it if they don't). It's the reason you can rely on Westerners to return their grocery carts to the collection points. It's empathy... we don't want to make life harder for the poor worker. I do not believe this feeling of empathy is pervasive in Indian cultures... maybe just a left-over from the caste system...

theptip 8y ago

I don't think jdietrich is confusing anything; they explicitly said: > Plastic packaging doesn't spontaneously release itself into the ecosystem, it's put there by someone irresponsibly managing waste. They are (correctly, IMO) pointing out that this is a classic case of missing the root cause; it's a commonly held position that plastic containers are inherently bad for the environment, and that position leads to laws like the one in the OP. My read of jdietrich's posts was that a more nuanced approach would be more optimal; the problem is not plastic containers per se, it's poor disposal. Keep in mind that India has less well developed infrastructure than Norway and the Netherlands, and so it's much harder to dispose of waste properly. More investment in this sort of service might be a better long-run strategy in terms of national cost/benefit. (Or it might not, depending on how much it would cost to improve the infrastructure; but the discussion about whether it's a good idea should make an analysis on that point.)

dd36 8y ago
Yes, it doesn’t spontaneously release itself. The solutions he then linked to don’t address the core issue. We know how to properly dispose of plastic.