3 ms·

> As long as plastics are disposed responsibly in ways that don't damage plants and animals, what's the issue? Please don't discount one of the biggest issues

> As long as plastics are disposed responsibly in ways that don't damage plants and animals, what's the issue? Please don't discount one of the biggest issues though. I've told folks their plastic bottle is about to blow away (overlooking lands end, right over the ocean). The person picks it up, walks a bit further up the trail and throw it in the bushes. I've had folks throw their cigarette butt on the side of the road on Independence pass. I asked them to pick it up, and they noodled around at the ground with their foot as if to find it, then hop in their car and take off. We should design for some irresponsibility and more so in places where there isn't much environmental consciousness.

scotchmi_st 8y ago
You're referring to anecdotes. Maybe the sort of behaviour is widespread, but even if it is, you then need to prove it's having much of an impact on the environment, and even then it's a drop in the ocean compared with the damage done via climate change and water consumption. We need to get out of our parochial ideas about waste. Plastics are aesthetically bad, but other forces are quantitatively way worse.
- state_less 8y ago
  It probably won't come as a big surprise that I also would like to address the larger forces as well. That doesn't mean that we can't also want to address the garbage that is littering our oceans.
- titzer 8y ago
  > Plastics are aesthetically bad, but other forces are quantitatively way worse. I don't agree with this line of reasoning. We have room for more than one priority, and solving the waste pipeline is ultimately one of logistics and political will, as well as elbow grease and the pluck to get out there and pick up some garbage. I've seen whole gaggles of people walk past a bottle lying on the ground next to a trash can, and no one would stoop over and pick it up and put it in the trash. Humans have this disease on societal scales, and the oceans are taking hell because of it.
  - mikec3010 8y ago
    The shit loads of trash in the ocean are from impoverished developing nations who use their rivers as garbage dumps. Not the ignorant yuppie who let's his Pepsi bottle blow into the marina. Don't let a few assholes be a surrogate for justifiable outrage that comes from a completely different source on an incomprehensibly massive scale.
    - titzer 8y ago
      > Don't let a few assholes be a surrogate for justifiable outrage that comes from a completely different source on an incomprehensibly massive scale. Oh I'm well acquainted with the problems in developing countries and they are disproportionately responsible for the state of the oceans. However, I'd say that they are all just degrees of the same problem. I've picked up lots of trash in developing countries, but also plenty along American highways, even in the most scenic areas of the country, and even seen it here and there even in the cleanest countries (Japan, Switzerland, Germany). I met some really nice people all over New Zealand who as volunteers simply go out and pick up garbage off the beach, in the bushes, trees, rivers, whereever it occurs. They recognize other places are shitholes but that doesn't stop them from doing something about the trash where they live. If you join in, in short order you can't help but realize that it isn't all washing up from some shithole in Southeast Asia, but a lot of it comes from local sources. Litter and dumping are universal problems. Don't fall prey to the "solving the biggest problem first" fallacy. Yes, we need to fix the pipeline and help those countries develop waste management systems, we need to stop producing so much plastic, but hell, when there is trash laying around, just pick it up! Getting people involved in doing this is the best way for them to see that this is a widespread problem, not just some trashy fuckwits over there that we can blame it all on.
      - mikec3010 8y ago
        I agree with you completely. Well said.
- 7Z7 8y ago
  >Plastics are aesthetically bad.. In many parts of the ocean we are way past aesthetics. 73% of Deep-Sea Fish Have Ingested Plastic: > https://www.ecowatch.com/plastics-deep-sea-fish-2536726086.html https://www.ecowatch.com/plastics-deep-sea-fish-2536726086.h... Whale Died Of Starvation After Eating 80 Plastic Bags Off Thailand's Coast: > https://www.forbes.com/sites/trevornace/2018/06/04/whale-died-of-starvation-after-eating-80-plastic-bags-off-thailands-coast/#2d8432586c31 https://www.forbes.com/sites/trevornace/2018/06/04/whale-die... All UK mussels contain plastic and other contaminants, study finds: > https://www.independent.co.uk/environment/mussels-plastic-microplastic-pollution-shellfish-seafood-oceans-uk-a8388486.html https://www.independent.co.uk/environment/mussels-plastic-mi...

scotchmi_st 8y ago

You're referring to anecdotes. Maybe the sort of behaviour is widespread, but even if it is, you then need to prove it's having much of an impact on the environment, and even then it's a drop in the ocean compared with the damage done via climate change and water consumption. We need to get out of our parochial ideas about waste. Plastics are aesthetically bad, but other forces are quantitatively way worse.

state_less 8y ago
It probably won't come as a big surprise that I also would like to address the larger forces as well. That doesn't mean that we can't also want to address the garbage that is littering our oceans.
titzer 8y ago
> Plastics are aesthetically bad, but other forces are quantitatively way worse. I don't agree with this line of reasoning. We have room for more than one priority, and solving the waste pipeline is ultimately one of logistics and political will, as well as elbow grease and the pluck to get out there and pick up some garbage. I've seen whole gaggles of people walk past a bottle lying on the ground next to a trash can, and no one would stoop over and pick it up and put it in the trash. Humans have this disease on societal scales, and the oceans are taking hell because of it.
- mikec3010 8y ago
  The shit loads of trash in the ocean are from impoverished developing nations who use their rivers as garbage dumps. Not the ignorant yuppie who let's his Pepsi bottle blow into the marina. Don't let a few assholes be a surrogate for justifiable outrage that comes from a completely different source on an incomprehensibly massive scale.
  - titzer 8y ago
    > Don't let a few assholes be a surrogate for justifiable outrage that comes from a completely different source on an incomprehensibly massive scale. Oh I'm well acquainted with the problems in developing countries and they are disproportionately responsible for the state of the oceans. However, I'd say that they are all just degrees of the same problem. I've picked up lots of trash in developing countries, but also plenty along American highways, even in the most scenic areas of the country, and even seen it here and there even in the cleanest countries (Japan, Switzerland, Germany). I met some really nice people all over New Zealand who as volunteers simply go out and pick up garbage off the beach, in the bushes, trees, rivers, whereever it occurs. They recognize other places are shitholes but that doesn't stop them from doing something about the trash where they live. If you join in, in short order you can't help but realize that it isn't all washing up from some shithole in Southeast Asia, but a lot of it comes from local sources. Litter and dumping are universal problems. Don't fall prey to the "solving the biggest problem first" fallacy. Yes, we need to fix the pipeline and help those countries develop waste management systems, we need to stop producing so much plastic, but hell, when there is trash laying around, just pick it up! Getting people involved in doing this is the best way for them to see that this is a widespread problem, not just some trashy fuckwits over there that we can blame it all on.
    - mikec3010 8y ago
      I agree with you completely. Well said.
7Z7 8y ago
>Plastics are aesthetically bad.. In many parts of the ocean we are way past aesthetics. 73% of Deep-Sea Fish Have Ingested Plastic: > https://www.ecowatch.com/plastics-deep-sea-fish-2536726086.html https://www.ecowatch.com/plastics-deep-sea-fish-2536726086.h... Whale Died Of Starvation After Eating 80 Plastic Bags Off Thailand's Coast: > https://www.forbes.com/sites/trevornace/2018/06/04/whale-died-of-starvation-after-eating-80-plastic-bags-off-thailands-coast/#2d8432586c31 https://www.forbes.com/sites/trevornace/2018/06/04/whale-die... All UK mussels contain plastic and other contaminants, study finds: > https://www.independent.co.uk/environment/mussels-plastic-microplastic-pollution-shellfish-seafood-oceans-uk-a8388486.html https://www.independent.co.uk/environment/mussels-plastic-mi...