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I can't blame them for side-stepping those issues--I would do the same thing. Anytime someone mentions that they're Catholic on reddit, people automatically ass

I can't blame them for side-stepping those issues--I would do the same thing. Anytime someone mentions that they're Catholic on reddit, people automatically assume that (1)you are fully versed in everything about the situation, (2)you agree with how the Church handled it all, (3)you must be contributing to it by staying in the Church, etc. We're all generally angry about this problem. I don't know a single person who approves of the practice of just moving people around, but there are so many complexities to the issue. I can't even begin to discuss the finer points without someone piping up with their random, pointless garbage that taints the conversation. The Catholic Church has done a lot to fix the problems with the child abuse stuff. We've stopped with the Crusades (and apologized for them!). And the Catholic Church's stance on homosexuality and things of that nature are much more nuanced than people realize. Honestly, most of us are just tired of talking about these things. (Except the crazies who get all the press. The news people don't like talking to sensible people--that doesn't make for good TV.) Really, most of the stuff on reddit about Catholics is vitriol and hate, and there's really no point to answer obvious flame bait questions when there are other perfectly good questions to answer.

redthrowaway 16y ago
What's complicated about moving priests around? It seems to be entirely cynical and self-serving. Had they handled the issues differently, you wouldn't see the vitriol. I'm sorry, but you can't claim to be a member and defender of an organization that has institutionalized child rape and yet take umbrage at those who suggest your membership in said organization offers monetary and moral support to those practices. If the practice of shuffling priests and shielding them from the law is a complex one, then by all means describe how that's so. It certainly doesn't look complex to the rest of us. It looks evil.
- benmccann 16y ago
  By the same logic you support the internment of Japanese Americans during WWII, killing native Americans and taking their land, extraordinary rendition, and borrowing trillions of dollars. It's unfortunate, but sometimes the leaders of an organization do things which its membership does not approve of. Very few people support what was done, but that doesn't mean they should renounce their affiliation. If the dissenters leave, who is left to change things?
- assemble 16y ago
  What did I say: people automatically assume that (1)you are fully versed in everything about the situation, (2)you agree with how the Church handled it all, (3)you must be contributing to it by staying in the Church, etc. We're all generally angry about this problem. I don't know a single person who approves of the practice of just moving people around, but there are so many complexities to the issue. The complexities of the issue isn't that they were moved around. And as I said, nobody I know agrees with that. Do I know the facts of the case? No. Do I think that they should have been removed from public activity after the accusations? Yes. Should these things have been reported to police? Yes. I'm tired of talking about this stuff. The problem is that there now seems to be a witch hunt against priests, and really all Catholics. Look around here, on reddit, etc: hardly anybody even gives us a chance. Our Church has made mistakes; it has admitted this, and has changed the policies: - Every person who works with kids in a Catholic organization in the US has to go through a training class on spotting & preventing abuse. - The Church now reports all of these instances to police. There really is more to the issue than just moving priests around. You won't get much argument that simply moving them around was the wrong answer, but you won't get anymore out of me when you say that I monetarily and morally support child abuse. - 20% of the hospitals in the US are Catholic hospitals, they accept anybody--and have longer than other hospitals have. (Remember segregation? Our hospitals in the South accepted blacks and whites.) - We probably have the most private schools in the country. They don't get money from the government, so essentially public schools are getting more money per pupil than they should. They also tend to have higher test scores on average. (Oh, and Catholics teach evolution in science class...) - We run numerous soup kitchens, food pantries and homeless shelters. For an amazing example of this kind of charity, read up about the St. Vincent de Paul Society. ( http://svdpusa.org/ http://svdpusa.org/ ) It's fantastic. Anyway, people are by their nature fallible. Our leaders have worked to fix the problems. The coverup is a horrible problem, but the numbers for abusive priests are actually lower than those for the general male population. ( http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/andrewbrown/2010/mar/11/catholic-abuse-priests http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/andrewbrown/2010/mar... http://www.usccb.org/nrb/johnjaystudy/ http://www.usccb.org/nrb/johnjaystudy/ ) I've spent far too long on this, but this stuff bothers me. We don't know all the facts. We know something bad happened. We think we've fixed it. I'm not saying forgive and forget--on the contrary: don't ever forget it lest it happens again--but give us some of that 'tolerance' everybody keeps saying is so great... edit: formatting

redthrowaway 16y ago

What's complicated about moving priests around? It seems to be entirely cynical and self-serving. Had they handled the issues differently, you wouldn't see the vitriol. I'm sorry, but you can't claim to be a member and defender of an organization that has institutionalized child rape and yet take umbrage at those who suggest your membership in said organization offers monetary and moral support to those practices. If the practice of shuffling priests and shielding them from the law is a complex one, then by all means describe how that's so. It certainly doesn't look complex to the rest of us. It looks evil.

benmccann 16y ago
By the same logic you support the internment of Japanese Americans during WWII, killing native Americans and taking their land, extraordinary rendition, and borrowing trillions of dollars. It's unfortunate, but sometimes the leaders of an organization do things which its membership does not approve of. Very few people support what was done, but that doesn't mean they should renounce their affiliation. If the dissenters leave, who is left to change things?
assemble 16y ago
What did I say: people automatically assume that (1)you are fully versed in everything about the situation, (2)you agree with how the Church handled it all, (3)you must be contributing to it by staying in the Church, etc. We're all generally angry about this problem. I don't know a single person who approves of the practice of just moving people around, but there are so many complexities to the issue. The complexities of the issue isn't that they were moved around. And as I said, nobody I know agrees with that. Do I know the facts of the case? No. Do I think that they should have been removed from public activity after the accusations? Yes. Should these things have been reported to police? Yes. I'm tired of talking about this stuff. The problem is that there now seems to be a witch hunt against priests, and really all Catholics. Look around here, on reddit, etc: hardly anybody even gives us a chance. Our Church has made mistakes; it has admitted this, and has changed the policies: - Every person who works with kids in a Catholic organization in the US has to go through a training class on spotting & preventing abuse. - The Church now reports all of these instances to police. There really is more to the issue than just moving priests around. You won't get much argument that simply moving them around was the wrong answer, but you won't get anymore out of me when you say that I monetarily and morally support child abuse. - 20% of the hospitals in the US are Catholic hospitals, they accept anybody--and have longer than other hospitals have. (Remember segregation? Our hospitals in the South accepted blacks and whites.) - We probably have the most private schools in the country. They don't get money from the government, so essentially public schools are getting more money per pupil than they should. They also tend to have higher test scores on average. (Oh, and Catholics teach evolution in science class...) - We run numerous soup kitchens, food pantries and homeless shelters. For an amazing example of this kind of charity, read up about the St. Vincent de Paul Society. ( http://svdpusa.org/ http://svdpusa.org/ ) It's fantastic. Anyway, people are by their nature fallible. Our leaders have worked to fix the problems. The coverup is a horrible problem, but the numbers for abusive priests are actually lower than those for the general male population. ( http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/andrewbrown/2010/mar/11/catholic-abuse-priests http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/andrewbrown/2010/mar... http://www.usccb.org/nrb/johnjaystudy/ http://www.usccb.org/nrb/johnjaystudy/ ) I've spent far too long on this, but this stuff bothers me. We don't know all the facts. We know something bad happened. We think we've fixed it. I'm not saying forgive and forget--on the contrary: don't ever forget it lest it happens again--but give us some of that 'tolerance' everybody keeps saying is so great... edit: formatting