7 ms·

They have a really odd way to attract tech talent.... I exited my startup in the uk two years ago, successfully, leaving a successful and growing technology bu

They have a really odd way to attract tech talent.... I exited my startup in the uk two years ago, successfully, leaving a successful and growing technology business behind. I have several ideas which I am prepared to self-fund up to £0.5M, and want a good environment in which to start a new business. I know coders in NZ, and they’re a talented bunch, we began to hatch a plan. In short, the NZ gov’t don’t want it. They either want more money invested up front (much, much more), a VC to be involved (not at that stage yet by a long shot), or for me to buy a new property in NZ for > $2,000,000. Apparently having built a business with £10M turnover from nothing isn’t sufficiently good enough entrepreneurship for me to pass. I’m now looking elsewhere - which is a shame, as I love NZ for many reasons, from the people to the nature, to the family I have there. I’m trying very hard not to be bitter about the repeated rejections, as it’s not fair to tar a nation on the basis of immigration bureaucrats. I’m certainly disappointed - the idea was for a service that NZ needs, that I hit upon while travelling there after my exit for a few months. All they will attract will be satellite startups owned by megacorporations, as this appears to be how the bars are set.

avip 8y ago
Not to advocate NZ, but you should consider any immigration plan is fraud averse first.
cs02rm0 8y ago
Maybe the property is the route to go - can it be commercial? Remote hires not an option? Tech startups seem to be hard to get people to take seriously, however solid the foundation. I've done a lot of consultancy for a UK company whose entire strategy has stalled for years because they can't/won't invest in building out a rewrite of their flagship product. I've offered to build it out for zero up front cost, just cut me in on a slice of the pie if it sells. They won't even consider it, haven't even begun to discuss the size of the slice and have turned down other contractors trying to make the same offer previously. I'm not sure how the risk could be lower and in the meantime their competitors are booming. And they're not government employees.
dwightgunning 8y ago
This is lame though to be fair to NZ I've come across similar requirements in other countries too. Over the years I've happened to be invited to discussions with policy makers in both The Netherlands (2013) and Australia (2016) and as far as I know they came up with similar policies. Further back I recall taking a look at Germany (~2012) and it was also onerous. The main takeaway I had was that constructing a set of fair requirements that can be effectively assessed/enforced is nigh impossible. Entrepreneurs should be vocal and advocate for changes that improve the system but ultimately play the cards that are dealt and stay focussed on the company mission.
- cr1895 8y ago
  For what it's worth, it's relatively simple for an American to open a business and gain residency in the Netherlands through the Dutch-American Friendship Treaty.
  - dwightgunning 8y ago
    That's true and definitely worth noting. In NL it is a very easy path compared to the one non-US citizens need to navigate.
  - beagle3 8y ago
    But unless things have changed considerably in the last 5 years, that American will suffer greatly at the hands of the American tax system, which treats any American owned and managed asset outside the US as a tax evasion scheme.
phyalow 8y ago
>£10M turnover from nothing I dont understand why people quote turnover. It is a useless number.
- fauigerzigerk 8y ago
  It's not necessarily useless. It usually (not always) means that there is a useful product that someone is willing to pay for. Doesn't mean it's sustainable of course.
- chiefalchemist 8y ago
  Perhaps not useless but highly misleading without context. How many customers? How many employees? Any profit? All these would help.
  - madaxe_again 8y ago
    45 employees, net profit of about £4M in the last FY.
    - chiefalchemist 8y ago
      Impressive
      - madaxe_again 8y ago
        Nah. Doesn’t even count as a “real business” when it comes to immigration options.
ponzored 8y ago
Just sign up for a degree at a degree mill and you'll get a student visa and an easy route to permanent residency. New Zealand (and Australia) don't care about quality migrants, just quantity, to keep up demand for housing (both countries have housing-bubble-based economies) and to add extra consumption to national GDP. The migrants they really want are Indians who can put downwards pressure on wages. Go to Auckland, its basically an Asian city. Go somewhere like Poland, Romania or Portugal and hire your own workforce. You won't even be in the ass-end of the world like NZ.
- iagovar 8y ago
  Basically this. Europe has a lot of cheapish countries with wasted talent that typically migrates to the US, UK or Germany for corp. I'd say that Portugal is a great choice.
- untog 8y ago
  Irrespective of anything else, I had to laugh at the description of one of the most beautiful places in the planet as the "ass-end of the world".
  - workinthehead 8y ago
    Why? Asses can be beautiful. And it doesn't change the fact that NZ is about as remote as you can get.
    - zinckiwi 8y ago
      In the past decade or two, NZ's remoteness has seemed increasingly like a feature, not a bug.
- shankr 8y ago
  Unless you have lived in Poland, Romania or Portugal, I wouldn't be so sure in suggesting these places. These countries have their own challenges starting from language barrier to inefficient bureaucracy. I don't think either of these countries are well-known for their tech quality either.
prebrov 8y ago
I'm not in NZ, but seriously considered it as a destination. I agree with you, the article has nothing to do with reality and is just wishful thinking or, more likely, a PR shill paid up by NZ's foreign promotion board or however they're called. Jacinda Ardern had a strong anti-immigration position during her campaign, she literally promised to cut immigration by 20'000-30'000 per year, from 70'000. No surprise that current government basically dismantled all immigration schemes. Good luck to them building their own Silicon Valley!
- yarg 8y ago
  There's a huge number of low skill immigrants in New Zealand, they don't really add that much to the country. I don't imagine that any restrictions on immigration would significantly impact skilled workers. That said, I don't understand why we would possibly have a requirement of VC involvement when the already money is there to actually do the work.
  - te_chris 8y ago
    Because the VC's wrote the rules...
    - lancewiggs 8y ago
      Lol no we didn’t.
  - madaxe_again 8y ago
    So, despite being an entrepreneur, and having founded several successful and sustainable businesses, I’m one of your “unskilled migrants”. Sure, I’ve been coding since I could walk, I have current and expert systems and web technology knowledge - but I have a bachelors. In physics. Not useful at all, and puts me on the same rung as a golf course management graduate - actually, below, as they have a shortage skill. One of the hurdles I am repeatedly failing at with trying to emigrate is that I do not have a compsci degree. It seems that having a bit of paper is much more important than having a track record.
kalleboo 8y ago
> I’m now looking elsewhere Have you found anything? Singapore also requires a VC; Japan has a startup visa but there you have a quite steep language/cultural barrier... If you're from the UK it seems like your main option is inside the EU (until Brexit at least)
chiefalchemist 8y ago
Somewhere is a very rich (clueless) consultant who sold them that (bullshit) idea.
njoro 8y ago
Is this the "Entrepreneur Work Visa"? Because reading online suggests that you would qualify. Of course when it comes to visas it is often hard to know how things actually work without talking to an immigration lawyer or similar.
- madaxe_again 8y ago
  Yes, it is, and I thought so too from the info available online - but the reality is rather different. I had a hard line of £10k to spend on exploring immigration exploration there including paying a lawyer - and when that money was gone with no progress, I cut my losses. As to where instead, others have suggested Portugal, Romania, Poland - Portugal is nice, but get talking to locals and there’s a problem with corruption around business ownership and ensuing audits, etc., Romania has a really big corruption problem, and there’s not much happening outside of Cluj and Bucharest, and Poland has the same kind of politics that I’m hoping to leave behind in the UK. Natural beauty and quality of life were big pluses for NZ. I’ve also explored Latin America to little avail (the ground situation is rather different to the paper one - huge black markets in Argentina, Brazil, Uruguay, brewing social unrest), and am now looking seriously at Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania- although again, all three are hardening their stance against non-EU migrants, which I will be come March next, and have similar nationalist movements to elsewhere.

avip 8y ago

Not to advocate NZ, but you should consider any immigration plan is fraud averse first.

cs02rm0 8y ago

Maybe the property is the route to go - can it be commercial? Remote hires not an option? Tech startups seem to be hard to get people to take seriously, however solid the foundation. I've done a lot of consultancy for a UK company whose entire strategy has stalled for years because they can't/won't invest in building out a rewrite of their flagship product. I've offered to build it out for zero up front cost, just cut me in on a slice of the pie if it sells. They won't even consider it, haven't even begun to discuss the size of the slice and have turned down other contractors trying to make the same offer previously. I'm not sure how the risk could be lower and in the meantime their competitors are booming. And they're not government employees.

dwightgunning 8y ago

This is lame though to be fair to NZ I've come across similar requirements in other countries too. Over the years I've happened to be invited to discussions with policy makers in both The Netherlands (2013) and Australia (2016) and as far as I know they came up with similar policies. Further back I recall taking a look at Germany (~2012) and it was also onerous. The main takeaway I had was that constructing a set of fair requirements that can be effectively assessed/enforced is nigh impossible. Entrepreneurs should be vocal and advocate for changes that improve the system but ultimately play the cards that are dealt and stay focussed on the company mission.

cr1895 8y ago
For what it's worth, it's relatively simple for an American to open a business and gain residency in the Netherlands through the Dutch-American Friendship Treaty.
- dwightgunning 8y ago
  That's true and definitely worth noting. In NL it is a very easy path compared to the one non-US citizens need to navigate.
- beagle3 8y ago
  But unless things have changed considerably in the last 5 years, that American will suffer greatly at the hands of the American tax system, which treats any American owned and managed asset outside the US as a tax evasion scheme.

phyalow 8y ago

>£10M turnover from nothing I dont understand why people quote turnover. It is a useless number.

fauigerzigerk 8y ago
It's not necessarily useless. It usually (not always) means that there is a useful product that someone is willing to pay for. Doesn't mean it's sustainable of course.
chiefalchemist 8y ago
Perhaps not useless but highly misleading without context. How many customers? How many employees? Any profit? All these would help.
- madaxe_again 8y ago
  45 employees, net profit of about £4M in the last FY.
  - chiefalchemist 8y ago
    Impressive
    - madaxe_again 8y ago
      Nah. Doesn’t even count as a “real business” when it comes to immigration options.

ponzored 8y ago

Just sign up for a degree at a degree mill and you'll get a student visa and an easy route to permanent residency. New Zealand (and Australia) don't care about quality migrants, just quantity, to keep up demand for housing (both countries have housing-bubble-based economies) and to add extra consumption to national GDP. The migrants they really want are Indians who can put downwards pressure on wages. Go to Auckland, its basically an Asian city. Go somewhere like Poland, Romania or Portugal and hire your own workforce. You won't even be in the ass-end of the world like NZ.

iagovar 8y ago
Basically this. Europe has a lot of cheapish countries with wasted talent that typically migrates to the US, UK or Germany for corp. I'd say that Portugal is a great choice.
untog 8y ago
Irrespective of anything else, I had to laugh at the description of one of the most beautiful places in the planet as the "ass-end of the world".
- workinthehead 8y ago
  Why? Asses can be beautiful. And it doesn't change the fact that NZ is about as remote as you can get.
  - zinckiwi 8y ago
    In the past decade or two, NZ's remoteness has seemed increasingly like a feature, not a bug.
shankr 8y ago
Unless you have lived in Poland, Romania or Portugal, I wouldn't be so sure in suggesting these places. These countries have their own challenges starting from language barrier to inefficient bureaucracy. I don't think either of these countries are well-known for their tech quality either.

prebrov 8y ago

I'm not in NZ, but seriously considered it as a destination. I agree with you, the article has nothing to do with reality and is just wishful thinking or, more likely, a PR shill paid up by NZ's foreign promotion board or however they're called. Jacinda Ardern had a strong anti-immigration position during her campaign, she literally promised to cut immigration by 20'000-30'000 per year, from 70'000. No surprise that current government basically dismantled all immigration schemes. Good luck to them building their own Silicon Valley!

yarg 8y ago
There's a huge number of low skill immigrants in New Zealand, they don't really add that much to the country. I don't imagine that any restrictions on immigration would significantly impact skilled workers. That said, I don't understand why we would possibly have a requirement of VC involvement when the already money is there to actually do the work.
- te_chris 8y ago
  Because the VC's wrote the rules...
  - lancewiggs 8y ago
    Lol no we didn’t.
- madaxe_again 8y ago
  So, despite being an entrepreneur, and having founded several successful and sustainable businesses, I’m one of your “unskilled migrants”. Sure, I’ve been coding since I could walk, I have current and expert systems and web technology knowledge - but I have a bachelors. In physics. Not useful at all, and puts me on the same rung as a golf course management graduate - actually, below, as they have a shortage skill. One of the hurdles I am repeatedly failing at with trying to emigrate is that I do not have a compsci degree. It seems that having a bit of paper is much more important than having a track record.

kalleboo 8y ago

> I’m now looking elsewhere Have you found anything? Singapore also requires a VC; Japan has a startup visa but there you have a quite steep language/cultural barrier... If you're from the UK it seems like your main option is inside the EU (until Brexit at least)

chiefalchemist 8y ago

Somewhere is a very rich (clueless) consultant who sold them that (bullshit) idea.

njoro 8y ago

Is this the "Entrepreneur Work Visa"? Because reading online suggests that you would qualify. Of course when it comes to visas it is often hard to know how things actually work without talking to an immigration lawyer or similar.

madaxe_again 8y ago
Yes, it is, and I thought so too from the info available online - but the reality is rather different. I had a hard line of £10k to spend on exploring immigration exploration there including paying a lawyer - and when that money was gone with no progress, I cut my losses. As to where instead, others have suggested Portugal, Romania, Poland - Portugal is nice, but get talking to locals and there’s a problem with corruption around business ownership and ensuing audits, etc., Romania has a really big corruption problem, and there’s not much happening outside of Cluj and Bucharest, and Poland has the same kind of politics that I’m hoping to leave behind in the UK. Natural beauty and quality of life were big pluses for NZ. I’ve also explored Latin America to little avail (the ground situation is rather different to the paper one - huge black markets in Argentina, Brazil, Uruguay, brewing social unrest), and am now looking seriously at Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania- although again, all three are hardening their stance against non-EU migrants, which I will be come March next, and have similar nationalist movements to elsewhere.