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Ask HN: Is it ever okay for a physically healthy person to self terminate?

• hazz99 8y ago
  > a physically healthy person I'm no psychologist, but would anyone who -wants- to self-terminate be considered a "healthy person"? Legitimate question -- I can't imagine someone who is in good health, has good relationships, and has a good possible "life trajectory" to want to self-terminate. > Seems we allow this now; if someone is truly intent they will find a way. I disagree that we "allow this", because it's almost impossible to stop it completely (by force & legislation, ignoring the effects of education & awareness). It is illegal to do it to yourself (for insurance reasons, I believe), and it's illegal to assist someone else. Again, I have no background knowledge here. Would be interesting to see some different perspectives.
  • bausshf 8y ago
    You don't have to be depressed or anything to be suicidal. https://www.reddit.com/r/UnresolvedMysteries/comments/76qp85/why_do_you_think_brandenn_bremmer_killed_himself/ https://www.reddit.com/r/UnresolvedMysteries/comments/76qp85...
    • jidsaofjaeojf 8y ago
      Seems to be an open question, because it's presumed that the survival instinct is linked with sound mental health.
• resource0x 8y ago
  how about divorcing your wife/husband, thus hurting her/him, your children and others? Should anyone be allowed to do that?
  • smt88 8y ago
    Divorce may hurt people, but it's not a great analogy because a divorced person can still be a good parent, financial supporter, repayer of debts, etc. There's a huge difference between the damage of divorce vs. the damage of death.
    • ionised 8y ago
      > good parent, financial supporter, repayer of debts It doesn't sound like you're interested in what this person wants or needs at all. You're just interested in what they can offer you while they're alive.
      • smt88 8y ago
        I'm not trying to argue about the merit of suicide, the definition of mental health, or any other philosophical issue. I don't have a specific person or situation in mind. I'm only suggesting that the right to divorce is nothing like the right to death and isn't a useful analogy. The circumstances and considerations are radically different.
• paulcole 8y ago
  Absolutely. I believe it’s possible to have had enough life. I have Type 1 diabetes and do well managing it. I run long distances and if you saw me you’d think I was a normal athletic and fairly fit person. So technically I’m currently healthy but longterm who knows. But even before I was diagnosed (early 30s) I was sick of being alive. I was never drawn to having children, hate working, and don’t make that much money. If I had the option of never waking up again, I’d take it. Probably take a little time to blow my savings first, but I don’t have much to look forward to.
  • jklein11 8y ago
    That seems pretty unfair to the people that care about you. They might not even be family or close friends, but might be acquaintances, distant co-workers, or people you see on the street. They get happiness out of interacting with you and having you with them. It doesn't seem right to take that away from them. It sounds like you might be in a bad place mentally. I'm sure that it wouldn't hurt to talk to a professional. Worst case, you spend an hour or two and maybe a co-pay and still feel the same way you do now. Best case they may make every day a little bit more bearable.
    • hsienmaneja 8y ago
      Thankfully I’ve never procreated. Imagine being trapped in an unwanted life, wanting to die, but staying alive because it is “right” for others. Some simply want to be dead, not seek medical help. The arrangement of western life, however, is that one is expected to “seek help” when they’ve decided to pack it in.
      • jklein11 8y ago
        Not sure how the procreation part is relevant. You are part of society and many communities whether you like it or not. I guess I don't understand how life is wanted/unwanted. I have no concept of what it is like to not have life, so how could I possibly prefer it? I think because I can't rationalize it makes me think that something else might be at play. At the end of the day seeking medical help has very little downside even if it isn't helpful. Not seeking medical help when it could have been helpful seems like it has a tremendous amount of downside with very little upside.
• oldcynic 8y ago
  Selfish and unfair of them? Is that not just as selfish, if not more so wanting to save you some pain whilst they must keep theirs - for your or society's convenience? Would you restrict loved ones from risky activities for the same reasoning? A friend's grandfather killed himself a week or two after his lifelong wife died. The family view seemed to be it was rather touching. I got no impression anyone felt it was unfair. My friend certainly didn't. After my dad died my mother lost interest in life. For the whole of the rest of her life she wasn't enjoying it, deeply missed my father, and was really just going through the motions. Not that she'd ever admit that though most saw it clearly. She wasn't likely to be remarrying in her 70s. She died of natural causes. Had she taken her life, I'd have been upset, just as I was when she died. I think all her friends and family would have understood, and I certainly wouldn't have thought less of her. It wouldn't have hurt more. Actually almost certainly less, as it was so clear she was hugely unhappy those last years, even though she "coped" very well. I sure as hell wouldn't have called it unfair or selfish. I'd have probably thought it fitting, touching or perhaps a relief for her. At the end of the day it is their life to do with as they choose, not mine. So yes, of course it can be OK, not exclusively for the elderly either.
• arthev 8y ago
  “On providence” by Seneca provides an interesting view on this.
• mabynogy 8y ago
  No, it's immoral and a person with such feelings is not healthy.
  • ionised 8y ago
    Immoral according to who?
    • mabynogy 8y ago
      To mankind.
      • ionised 8y ago
        You spoken to all of mankind have you? Interesting.
        • mabynogy 8y ago
          90% of mankind believe in god troll.
          • ionised 8y ago
            So anyone challenging your beliefs is a troll? > 90% of mankind believe in god Sorry, but that's just not the case. ~30-35%% of the population of Earth identify as some flavour of Christian. Others believe in all manner of other gods and entities and moralities. Not sure why you feel the need to make up bullshit. It's arrogant to assume everybody else shares your beliefs.
            • mabynogy 8y ago
              It's not a belief. It's numbers. You're aggressive, dishonest and you change the subject without arguments. You understand something else that isn't in my words. It belongs to you. Not me. It's your problem.
• gaspoweredcat 8y ago
  in my opinion yes, there are multiple situations where id say its ok, there are plenty of ways you can have essentially ruined your life either by fault of your own or through happenstance but its also possible just to have had enough, i think this can be especially true for people who are not what you would call sociable creatures i dont personally have the desire to interact with others much, ill never be having children or entering a relationship and i have not got a career, just a job that is a means to an end. while ive never been particularly well off ive managed to tick off most everything on my bucket list. in short i lack purpose and have many times considered that maybe ive had enough, to what end should i continue to struggle on, things will only get harder as the years go on, i have no reason to struggle on so i dont need to be a drain on the resources of the country/world
• deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
• ionised 8y ago
  I think its selfish and unfair to judge other people selfish and unfair just because you want to save yourself the pain of loss. That said, I do think people have the right to voluntarily end their own existence, but clearly many suicides are a result of temporary mental problems like severe depression, or temporary life problems like crippling debt, job loss or loss of a relationship. These things could have potentially been resolved. I also think it's totally possible to have just had enough of life as well. It's an unpopular opinion because survival instinct is such a strong force, but I really don't think life is for everybody, and if that person wants to check out they are going to do it whether you like it or not. A comedian once said; “Life is like a movie, if you've sat through more than half of it and it’s sucked every second so far, it probably isn't going to get great right at the end and make it all worthwhile. None should blame you for walking out early.” I tend to agree with that. Not all suicides are the result of mental illness. Some people just want to check out early because they never enjoyed being here, despite not having what outside observers may identify as mental or personal problems. Some societies glorified suicide, or held it as a way out of dishonour (think the ship's captain locking himself in a room with a bottle of whiskey and a revolver, or the Samurai that accepted their own deaths long before they walked on the battlefield). I think our attitudes towards suicide are partly social (it alarms us to see members of our own species ending their lives, as it doesn't jive well with our world view) and partly cultural/religious (Abrahamic religions treated suicide as a mortal sin) and other cultures may see the act of self-termination differently. I also don't think its helpful to throw accusations of 'mental illness' around as easily as we seem to. Whether it is a suicide or a mass murder, instantly jumping to mental illness absolves us of the need to understand this uncomfortable aspect of humanity. It is easier than accepting the cultural and philisophical factors at play, and the realisation that we are all capable of these acts given the right set of circumstances. Philosophers have long pondered this question. You can find arguments for and against here; https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philosophy_of_suicide https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philosophy_of_suicide https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/suicide/ https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/suicide/
• egberts1 8y ago
  Wut? I’ve read countless of spy novels. I’m going to say that spies off themselves at their prime ... as needed.
• Regardsyjc 8y ago
  I don't think so because suicide is or may be contagious. "...numerous social science studies indicate that one of the best predictors of committing suicide is knowing suicide." When I was suicidal, I wondered if my suicide could influence someone else I love to bite the bullet when they had a moment of weakness, and whether if I could live with that. I considered metaphorically putting a gun to my head was the same as putting a gun to another's psychologically. Honestly because I have had two suicide attempts... Even though I didn't succeed, I know I hurt the people I love very much. I feel that every loss and death is like a tiny bomb in a social network, it stresses families and communities, and can even severely damage people. https://www.brainpickings.org/2013/11/18/stay-suicide-hecht/ https://www.brainpickings.org/2013/11/18/stay-suicide-hecht/
• patatino 8y ago
  Suicide is not selfish, it is a desperate act to stop the pain (physically or mentally). It's sad that we even consider it to be selfish. It shows how little empathy we have sometimes. If someone jumps from the 40th floor of a burning building we can understand it. It's an extreme reaction to an extreme situation. Like suicide.
  • hsienmaneja 8y ago
    The burning jumper scenario isn’t quite the same. In the case of 9/11 twin towers, the jumpers were murdered, they didn’t commit suicide. Death was certain for them whether they had jumped or not.
    • patatino 8y ago
      It's an example which people can understand. It's an impossible situation to escape from. They chose the slightly better scenario. People who commit suicide also chose the slightly better scenario (in their mind) for them.
      • jidsaofjaeojf 8y ago
        They're not the same. In the jumper scenario, imminent death was certain whether they jumped or not. This is only true in a small fraction of suicides.
        • deleted 8y ago
          [deleted]
• phaus 8y ago
  I don't have a good answer. I have a personal and surely biased feeling that it is wrong and frequently harmful in a profound way to families and friends. My older brother killed himself in a failed attempt to convincingly pretend to be suicidal in order to be transferred to a lower security part of a prison. He forgot that prison guards aren't paid enough to give a shit about anything so they didn't follow their policy of roaming around and checking on people and he bled to death. He was going to be there until he was almost 50. Trying to be objective as possible. I think if it was allowed and there wasn't a massive social stigma against it, there would still be huge issues. Even old, experienced people are woefully bad at accurately estimating when a situation is irretrievably hopeless. So I think we would see a lot of young people (not just young as in kids but also 30-40 year olds) killing themselves for really stupid reasons (like we already do). We might see someone lose a job and kill themselves when there's a good chance they could have recovered. A business might fail. A relationship might end. A loved one might die suddenly. A lonely person might be tired of trying. The temporary release of severe anguish in exchange for a life you currently aren't very fond of doesn't seem a high cost to pay soon after traumatic events occur. I'm generally considered a pessimist. However, when it comes to life, I can step back and acknowledge that there are lots of really bad situations that are redeemable. It might take years of work. It might involve being depressed or broke for a very long time. But persistent effort is the greatest indicator of success. I've been depressed my whole life so I understand the struggle. I know that in addition to the regular life things many of us suffer from, there are also various types of trauma that make the ordinary things unbearable. I could see situations where I agree someone may have never had any chance for their lives to improve. I knew a young woman in her 20s with a 14-year old daughter with autism. The child had so many issues she had to be monitored 24/7 to keep her from hurting herself. The mother had a dead end, shitty job (coincidentally she was a prison guard) that barely allowed her to survive. Between the job and the kid it was laughable to suggest that she had any realistic chance at all of going to school or finding a better job. When her girlfriend left her, she killed herself. She wasn't a friend of mine, only an acquaintance that I didn't know well. I wish she were still here, mostly from the pain that most any of us would feel from simply knowing a person that died young. However, when I step back and analyze her situation and try to think of any possibility of her finding some kind of relief or comfort, I don't think she had a chance. As a high school dropout, I should be a failure too, but I was fortunate and my interests as a youth happened to become very marketable. Some of us are forever trapped by the decisions we make when we are younger. For those of us like this girl, where not just one or two things are stacked against you, but seemingly everything. How can we judge? I want to be angry at any person that leaves a child alone in this world when it could have been prevented, but would I have the strength to live an impoverished life of waking hell for 60 years? I'm not very confident I could.
• naikrovek 8y ago
  I sort of always believed, sort of, that if you can prove that you aren't mentally ill beyond a certain degree, that you're reasonably intelligent, informed, and can show that you make good choices, you should be allowed to do pretty much whatever you want, including suicide. Note that this freedom I am describing does not include anything that impedes another's freedom in any way. No murder, robbery, all the normal stuff. If you can't prove that you are sane, and emotionally healthy, then you don't get to buy guns, get married, earn more than $x per year and so on. If a person is in this unhealthy or ignorant state they should be taken care of by the state and reintegrated in the way that suits them best. I don't ever want this implemented for many, many reasons.
• jmarchello 8y ago
  Hey, I think you should talk to someone. Please call this number. 1-800-273-8255.
• drakonka 8y ago
  Yes, I think that people shouldn't have to have their reasoning judged by external parties to decide what to do with their lives. A person's reasons for wanting to end their lives are their own, and it is totally fine for them to do so. If a loved one expressed the desire to kill themselves I would absolutely do everything I can to talk them out of it, but one thing I will not do is try to guilt them out of it. Who are we to decide another person's life or death?