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> ... because of very limited functionality of distributions' package managers that doesn't match developers' expectations. In particular, package managers don

by ben509 8y ago

> ... because of very limited functionality of distributions' package managers that doesn't match developers' expectations. In particular, package managers don't match the expectations of build systems, because package managers are written by and for ops guys. A sysadmin working on system serving a production load rarely wants to reboot the system, let alone blow it all away and rebuild from scratch. Moreover, the sysadmin needs to administer many systems, so they don't want to have anything being installed in special places, that's just adding more complexity. A build system has to account for the fact that devs are tinkering with the code, experimenting, etc. and need to periodically wipe it all away and run it with a clean slate.

codedokode 8y ago
So basically we need one more distribution, this time targeted at developers?
- zbentley 8y ago
  Brother/Sister, I have come down from the mountain, and behold, I bring news of a glorious new future, and it is called Gentoo! Salvation shall be had, in the weeks/years/decades after the first successful kernel compilation is achieved.
  - deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]
mmt 8y ago
> A sysadmin working on system serving a production load rarely wants to reboot the system, let alone blow it all away and rebuild from scratch. Uh, actually, that's exactly what I want. It's just Ops managers [1] who can't seem to wrap their heads around the notion. I've only once had the luxury to actually get to do that, and it took 5 minutes from IPMI reset to fully running system (scalable up to 100 boxes at a time from a single kickstart server). That was over 10 years ago, too. > package managers are written by and for ops guys. I just don't believe that, at least the "by" part. Linux is created by developers, my experience with the two major packaging systems is that the vast majority of the tooling for packaging has to do with the building, not administrative. > A build system has to account for the fact that devs are tinkering with the code, experimenting, etc. and need to periodically wipe it all away and run it with a clean slate. Ok.. so how do the Linux distro package build systems fail to account for that? How does a packaging system have anything to do with the behavior of choosing to start with a clean or dirty slate? [1] OK, and maybe some, maybe even most sysadmins, but please don't tar us all with the same brush.

by ben509 8y ago

codedokode 8y ago

So basically we need one more distribution, this time targeted at developers?

zbentley 8y ago
Brother/Sister, I have come down from the mountain, and behold, I bring news of a glorious new future, and it is called Gentoo! Salvation shall be had, in the weeks/years/decades after the first successful kernel compilation is achieved.
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]

mmt 8y ago

> A sysadmin working on system serving a production load rarely wants to reboot the system, let alone blow it all away and rebuild from scratch. Uh, actually, that's exactly what I want. It's just Ops managers [1] who can't seem to wrap their heads around the notion. I've only once had the luxury to actually get to do that, and it took 5 minutes from IPMI reset to fully running system (scalable up to 100 boxes at a time from a single kickstart server). That was over 10 years ago, too. > package managers are written by and for ops guys. I just don't believe that, at least the "by" part. Linux is created by developers, my experience with the two major packaging systems is that the vast majority of the tooling for packaging has to do with the building, not administrative. > A build system has to account for the fact that devs are tinkering with the code, experimenting, etc. and need to periodically wipe it all away and run it with a clean slate. Ok.. so how do the Linux distro package build systems fail to account for that? How does a packaging system have anything to do with the behavior of choosing to start with a clean or dirty slate? [1] OK, and maybe some, maybe even most sysadmins, but please don't tar us all with the same brush.